Debate with the Church of Christ

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DISPUTANTS: RN HOGAN AND DR. HENRY C. KINLEY December 9 & 10, 1963.

RECORDED BY DR. CARL F. GROSS ON A REEL TO REEL TAPE RECORDER AUDIO CASSETTE RECORDING RECEIVED FROM LAMAR GREER 3 100 MINUTE AUDIO CASSETTES CATALOG #: 63.1209

TRANSCRIBERS:

FIRST NIGHT, DECEMBER 9, 1963: STEVE LAPORTE: MOST OF PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH JACK LAPORTE: END OF PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH AND DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH MARY COLUCCI: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL AND THE BEGINNING OF DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL THERESE COMO: CONCLUSION TO DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL

SECOND NIGHT, DECEMBER 10, 1963: ANNE MASTROPAOLO: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH & BEGINNING OF PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH: PAMELA ROSEN AND CATHY FENTI: REMAINDER OF PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH AND BEGINNING OF DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL GERRY ROTHSTEIN: COMPLETION OF DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL AND PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL

FIRST PROOFREADING: GERRY ROTHSTEIN SECOND PROOFREADING: MICHAEL ROTHSTEIN THIRD PROOFREADING: GERRY ROTHSTEIN FOURTH PROOFREADING: INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS COMMITTEE APPROVED BY THE INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS COMMITTEE: 1997

PROOFREADERS' NOTES: 1. ... INDICATES THAT THE SPEAKER ENDED A WORD OR A SENTENCE WITHOUT VERBALLY COMPLETING IT. 2. ALL WORDS OF BOTH SPEAKERS HAVE BEEN TRANSCRIBED, EXCEPT AH AND UH. THESE WORDS WERE USED INFREQUENTLY BY BOTH SPEAKERS. 3. ____ INDICATES AN INAUDIBLE WORD OR SYLLABLE 4. WORDS IN CAPITAL LETTERS ARE COMMENTS OF THE TRANSCRIBER

A BRIEF HISTORY TO THIS DEBATE TAKEN FROM 1. LASALLE WILLIAM'S PERSONAL TESTIMONY AT THE 1989 EASTERN REGIONAL CONVENTION, AND 2. ONE OF DR. KINLEYS LECTURES AT THE 1967 CONVENTION ENTITLED: HEALINGS AND PREDICTIONS.

LaSalle Williams was a minister in the Church of Christ for 18 years. At the time he became involved in the ministry with the Church of Christ, the elders from the white Church of Christ took care of and educated some of those who showed promise in the black Church of Christ. LaSalle Williams was one of these. They would drill them and have them memorize entire chapters of the Bible that pertained to baptism.

For seven years Reverend Williams had been an assistant pastor for Reverend RN Hogan, a Church of Christ minister with about 450 to 500 parishioners. Later Reverend Williams became minister of his own Church of Christ with about 150 parishioners in regular attendance.

Three IDMR members, Doctors Fred Allen, Jr., Burbank Mitchell, and James Parker, attended a Wednesday night Bible study at Reverend Williams' church, disputing water baptism with some of his congregation. Since Reverend Williams was out of town at the time, he asked his parishioners to invite the men back. He became embarrassed and ashamed upon seeing his parishioners behave unseemly during the question and answer period with the IDMR people. He thought he had taught his people to be hospitable to strangers. After the meeting, Reverend Williams approached Burbank Mitchell and asked him, 'Who is your leader?' Upon hearing the response, he wondered who this Doctor Kinley was, since he knew most of the ministers in the area. He then asked where they held their church services.

He then attended one of the IDMR classes in Los Angeles, California. He was seated right up front. Doctor Harris was the first speaker. Reverend Williams was asked to be the second speaker. He did speak using his usual preaching style. At the conclusion of class, Doctor Kinley invited him back. Reverend Williams wanted to talk about baptism, stating he believed water baptism was essential to salvation. Doctor Kinley disagreed stating it was not essential in this Age of Grace. Reverend Williams then challenged Doctor Kinley to a public debate, and made an agreement with Doctor Kinley that winner take all; in other words if Doctor Kinley won the debate Reverend Williams would go and bring all his congregation to the IDMR and vice versa. Since the IDMR did not have a facility large enough, Reverend Williams suggested that he might be able to obtain Reverend RN Hogan's church on Figueroa in Los Angeles for the debate.

RN Hogan agreed that they could use his church for the debate and Reverend Williams then began to set up the debate with Doctor Kinley. Later Reverend Hogan discussed with Reverend Williams that it would be better if RN Hogan himself do the debate since he was an older man and more experienced, stating that he had already made his mark in the religious community. They agreed that it would leave a mark on LaSalle William's reputation and hurt him financially if he lost the debate.

Reverend Williams conferred with Doctor Kinley as to whether he would debate Reverend RN Hogan instead. Doctor Kinley's response was that it didn't matter to him, all he wanted to do was to preach the gospel anywhere.

At some point during this time period, Doctor Kinley was invited for a debate with the Church of Christ on Adams Street in Los Angeles. Dr. Kinley said he didn't want to debate because they were not honest. They claimed that they were honest and that they were the church that Christ built. Reverend Moore was sent to do the job. That night with Dr. Kinley and other class members in the audience, Reverend Moore belligerently argued against Dr. Kinley and told Dr. Kinley to shut up, although Dr. Kinley had not said anything. Reverend Moore said, 'you don't know what you're talking about, your founder and dean, he's ignorant and all you people that following him is ignorant.' Reverend Moore argued the entire time. At the conclusion of his discourse, he refused to sit and listen to Dr. Kinley, and walked out the door, leaving 1 0 minutes for Dr. Kinley.

After Reverend Williams kept after Dr. Kinley to debate, he went down with some class members to the Church of Christ on Figaro, Reverend RN Hogan's church, to make arrangements for the debate that Reverend Williams was setting up. Reverend Moore was setting there in a wheelchair. Dr. Kinley said he was a man that had rebuked God to His face. He had had a paralytic stroke through high blood pressure. Dr. Kinley said that he was gonna stay seated this time whether he wanted to or not. Reverend Hogan then had the nerve to stand up by the wheelchair with Dr. Kinley sitting in the audience of about 400 and said, 'Now you got a place to do your stuff. You're such a great, divine healer. Now you come on up and do your number, you're so great.'

During the debate, which is contained in the transcript that follows Reverend Williams sat and listened to both sides. After the debate Doctor Kinley asked Reverend Williams what he thought of the debate. Reverend Williams stated he thought Doctor Kinley had lost the debate and wondered why he hadn't stayed on the subject. Doctor Kinley reminded him that he had just wanted to preach the gospel. Reverend Williams responded to Doctor Kinley that he had lost the debate but had won him. Doctor Kinley told him that he needed to go back and teach his people the truth.

Reverend Williams went back to Reverend RN Hogan's church on a Wednesday night. Reverend RN Hogan was out of town, but Reverend Williams told the people the truth as he had learned it. While he was explaining this, someone called the police. He was taken by the police for disturbing the peace and was hand cuffed. He was stripped and put in a padded cell. His wife would eventually come and take him home, since no charges were ultimately pressed. He was shocked since he thought that his congregation loved him and would come with him, but instead when he told them the truth they had turned against him.

At the first National IDMR Convention in 1967, LaSalle Williams was nominated and elected by the IDMR congregation to Board of Trustees. Doctor Kinley often used Doctor Williams as a representative of and witness against the clergy.

Not only did this man lose his church but he was ostracized by his own family. But as Doctor LaSalle Williams accounted at all four IDMR regional conventions in 1989 that that was nothing in comparison to what he had gained.

DECEMBER 9, 1963:

PROPOSITION: Resolved that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past alien sins.

AFFIRMATIVE: Reverend RN Hogan NEGATIVE: Doctor Henry Clifford Kinley

pages 7 - 21: Reverend RN Hogan's Speech pages 22 - 31: Dr. HC Kinley's Speech pages 32 - 43: Reverend Hogan's Rebuttal pages 44 - 52: Dr. Kinley's Rebuttal

DECEMBER 10, 1963:

(Los Angeles, California, New Park Manor, 607 South Western Ave.

pages 53 - 61: Dr. Kinley's Speech pages 62 - 77: Reverend Hogan's Speech pages 78 - 84: Dr. Kinley's Rebuttal pages 85 - 96: Reverend Hogan's Rebuttal

TIMEKEEPERS: IDMR: Fred Allen; CHURCH OF CHRIST: unknown MODERATOR IDMR: Burbank Mitchell; MODERATOR CHURCH OF CHRIST: Brother Perkins READER IDMR: Dr. Harris; READER CHURCH OF CHRIST: unknown

FIRST NIGHT: INTRODUCTIONS AND PRELIMINARIES TAPE 1, SIDE A:

CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: ... which have gone to both sides. Things that's supposed to be in here tonight have been talked over. They have been discussed and the rules have been signed to that affect. Thus we shall expect them not to violate any of the rules agreed upon.

One of the rules that should especially be kept upon is that no disputant shall present new material unless his opponent has to. If that is done, we will have to consider the debate out of order, until it gets back in order, well then we will consider it out of order. It really isn't fair for the opponent to come up with the.., for disputant to come up and his opponent has little chance to reply and to present new argument. So we want to make that clear tonight, if that should happen then we're going to have to stop the debate until it gets in order.

I've always entertained the idea that a debate of this kind or a discussion of this kind could be productive of much good. And if we conduct ourselves in an orderly manner.

SOMEONE: That's right. That's alright.

CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: In order for the maximum amount of good to be obtained from a discussion of this kind, the audience must follow certain rules also. Not only are we asking the disputants to follow their rules that they have agreed upon, but we ask of this audience to follow certain rules. We're going to ask that each one refrain from any kind of oral out bursts, try to control your emotions this evening. I know that, that certainly, certain of some what emotion will run a little high in the discussion, but we're gonna ask that you hold 'em in check, control them. Let the disputers do the debating. Please do not under any circumstances engage in a discussion or dispute among yourselves. That will not be permitted. So now, let's start the debate and we can get on with this occurrence.

May I reiterate, please do not engage in a dispute among yourselves. Now the moderator for Doctor Kinley and his group is Mr. Mitchell. I don't know whether he will have anything to say, I think he has told me that...

SOMEONE: Give him three minutes.

CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: We will have the moderator to ____ say something.

NOW THIS IS THE PROPOSITION: resolved that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past alien sins. Now Brother Hogan is in the affirmative, he believes that water, literal water, as the proposition says here, the penitent believer is essential to his salvation. He saying, yes that's true, that's right. And he's going to attempt to prove that. He's going to prove that this evening.

Doctor Kinley is in the negative on that and he's saying, no, that isn't true. One does not have to be baptized of water to be saved. ___ ___ some what and bring it right down through. And at this time we're gonna turn the rostrum over to Mr. Mitchell, he would have to have his one word or so. Like to say this now that Brother ____ and the other one's....

SOMEONE: Allen.

MODERATOR: Allen. Doctor Allen, I believe he addresses himself as Doctor Allen. They're going to be the timekeepers. Mr. Mitchell and myself will be the moderators. There will be two 45 minute speeches each and Brother Hogan's beginning, and there will be a 30 minute rebuttal. Mr. Mitchell.

IDMR MODERATOR, BURBANK MITCHELL: There was just two things that are on my mind that I'll make, make as a opening address, as one of the moderators for this evening. I wanna set your minds at ease right away. Now Brother Perkins and I are in complete harmony, in complete accord in what we are to do and what our responsibilities are as far as moderators for this evening. And we will carry those out.

I think another thing I'd like to express right now is this, and Doctor Perkins has already stated and I... as you can see I'm a Caucasian, I'm a white man, as some people look at it, but I didn't come down here to come down here this evening to be in a negro congregation. This thing to me has gone past what I see in a man as far as color or flesh. This debate tonight is a very serious thing to me, because Doctor Perkins and 1, I hope everybody else here this evening will recognize that as Isaiah said knowledge and wisdom shall be the stability of the times, it shall be the strength of salvation. We've come here to listen this evening to two, two gentlemen expound knowledge of God, the strength of salvation. To me that surpasses everything else. So consequently, I'm here to learn in all humility of my Father. And I trust that not only the members of the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research that are present, with anybody else will be this evening believing in God, as we all should do 24 hours a day and conduct ourselves as ambassadors of Christ. I think you all agree with me on that. Don't you?

SOMEONE: Yes, sir.

IDMR MODERATOR, BURBANK MITCHELL: I don't think that's too much to ask of any of anybody if we believe in God.

FIRST NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH

CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: ... to come forth for his first 20 minute discussion. Are there any that ___, there are tape recorders, will each disputant announce his name when they begin. ___ that would be in order. We're gonna take the time to do that.

SOMEONE: That's a request.

PASTOR HOGAN: RN Hogan. Honorable moderators, my worthy opponent, brethren, sisters, ladies, gentlemen and friends. I count myself happy to have the privilege of affirming the proposition that has been read in your hearing. I affirm this proposition because, I believe my affirmation is true and right. It is the question of a debater to define his proposition well, make it clear that there'll be no misunderstanding, connected with the proposition or with what he is affirming or denying.

It's been read, resolved that the scriptures teach. By scriptures I simply mean the Old and New Testament. There is 66 books in the Bible. 39 which is in the Old and 27 in the New. By teaching I simply mean set forth either by direct command, precept, example, or necessary input. By baptism, I simply mean a dipping. And baptism just simply means dipped in water or immersed in literal. By literal I simply mean natural water that that can be seen and handled. Of the penitent. A penitent, I mean one who has turned from a wicked pursuit of life.

Believer is one who has heard the word of God, and the Bible teaches faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And that he has heard God's words and therefore believes it. It's essential, I mean it's necessary... this present Dispensation of Grace the Bible teaches that the law came from Moses but grace and truth came from Jesus Christ. That's the dispen... dispensation in which we are in. From past or alien sins, I mean the sins that he committed before baptism, before being born into God's common... becoming a citizen, of God; government upon earth--Sins, I mean those transgressions of God's law... sin is a transgression of the law and those transgressions.., they transgressed before submitting to heaven's will to get rid of.

I hope that's clear. I hope you understand the proposition well. Now we shall go on with our part of discussion. I am going to call attention to this proposition again and proceed. Resolve that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past or alien sins.

The first thing I wish to call attention to is the fact that Ephesians 4 and 5, we are taught there is one baptism. I want that to.., I want to drive that point home. This is about AD 64. About 23 years after the last record of Holy Ghost baptism, Paul said, guided by the Holy Spirit, to the brethren at Ephesus there is one baptism. Now if the Holy Spirit teaching is right, two would by too many or more than one would be too many. He said there is one baptism. If it is Holy Ghost baptism, then it is neither fire nor water. If it is fire baptism then it is neither water nor the Holy Ghost. If it is water baptism then it is neither Holy Ghost nor fire for the Bible says there is one. So we'll keep that in mind.

I'm glad that I have what I... seem to be a worthy opponent. As I understand it he has DD and a PhD degree; therefore, I say a worthy one because I don't have to be going around trying to make a man with such outstanding education understand simple language.

So now since he said there is one, then it's up to us to find out what that one baptism is, what it meant when he said there is one. Well 1, I'll raise the question since I'm in the affirmative. What is it? That same Apostle, by the same spirit, to the same church, in the same book, just the next chapter says it is water. Get Ephesians 5 and 25. He said there is one baptism and we're gonna find out from the same apostle by the same spirit what that one baptism is. Ephesians 5 and 25. Read it sir.

READER: Husbands love your wives PASTOR HOGAN: Husbands love your wives

READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse it

READER: with the washing of water by the word PASTOR HOGAN: with the washing of water by the word. READER: That He might present it

PASTOR HOGAN: That's all I want to know. We're not discussing the Church. There's one baptism; and the apostle said that Christ gave Himself, if you please, for the Church, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

Now ladies and gentlemen, I wanna say just a little bit about water. Now when literal water, natural water, that's water that you can see, ___ ___ he simply says water, but when spiritual water or when He's speaking metaphorically, if any other water is referred to, it is plainly pointed out. When spiritual water is involved it's.., Saul pointed out, by the word, living water or water of life. And I challenge my opponent to read one place or give one scriptural hint where the Lord has ever commanded anybody at anytime to be baptized in living water or water of life. Living water or water of life is in the person. That water, that water is in the person, but when it comes to being baptized, you put the person in the water. Now there's a difference in the person being in the water and the water being in him.

I want to, I want to get that one baptism, wanted to get that one baptism, get it before you clear, so you may know that even my opponent would have to agree that there is one or say the Holy Spirit made a mistake when He said there is one through the Apostle Paul.

Now, our subject ___ ___ the commissioned baptism is not an Old Testament subject. Did you hear what I said? The commissioned baptism as given by Christ in Matthew 28:19 is not an Old Testament thing. Some people try to impress us that it's Old Testament subject and it is nailed to the cross associated with carnal ordinances and nailed to the cross when Christ died. Well bless your heart, this baptism, the commissioned baptism could not have been nailed to the cross because it was given after the cross and after Christ died on the cross, when He gave the orders to go teach and baptize. (BABIES START CRYING) So we find, ladies and gentlemen, that after Christ got up from the grave He appeared unto the disciples to declare that all authority had been given unto Him and told them to go teach and baptize. And here's the part I want you to get. Christ told the disciples in Matthew 28:19. Read it, if you wanna read it.

READER: Go ye therefore

PASTOR HOGAN: Go ye therefore now for what reason, for what reason. (BABY STOPS CRYING) Therefore means for this reason. He is ___ in the 18th verse, according to the American Standard, all the authority in heaven and earth has been given unto Me. Go ye therefore

READER: And teach all nations PASTOR HOGAN: And teach all nations READER: Baptizing them PASTOR HOGAN: Baptizing them READER: In the name PASTOR HOGAN: Now ladies and gentlemen I'm ready to affirm that is water baptism. Why? Ah ha.

You see my opponent doesn't believe that is water baptism. My opponent because water baptism isn't mentioned, because it didn't say water here, he's decided that that is another baptism. What I said is water. Why do you said it? Well it is because the Lord commanded His disciples to administer. I challenge my opponent to read from God's Word of any other baptism that the disciples can administer. The only baptism the disciples or men can administer is water. Christ was the administrator of the Holy Spirit baptism. Christ will be administrator of fire baptism. The only baptism man can administer is water and Christ told 'em to go teach and baptize in the name of the Father.

READER: And of the Son PASTOR HOGAN: And of the Son READER: And of the Holy Ghost

PASTOR HOGAN: And of the Holy Spirit. In the name simply means by the authority and preaching in Christ's name is not baptizing. Preaching is one thing and baptizing'em is another. You baptize a person as a result of preaching. Jesus said in Mark 16 and 16, go ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Fine.

Proposition that I'm affirming is that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer this Dispensation of Grace is essential to his salvation from past alien sin. Jesus said, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Ladies and gentlemen this is the commissioned baptism. This is only Mark's record of it. Matthew said, go teach and baptize, giving men the orders to baptize. Lord Jesus made baptism a condition of salvation. He that by the Holy Spirit commanded baptism and promised the gift of the Holy Spirit after repentance and baptism. Acts 2:38, Acts 2:38.

READER: Then Peter said unto them

PASTOR HOGAN: Now this is one reason why I know it was the Holy Ghost baptism. Now Peter had preached to them. And you start at the 22nd verse and come on down. There at the 4th verse, they began to speak as the spirit gave utterance, so Peter preached the gospel unto them, go convict 'em to their heart because the Bible says when they heard this, they were pricked to the heart, into their heart, in their heart and said unto Peter and the rest of the brethren, men and brethren, what shall we do? Here comes the answer.

READER: Then Peter said unto them PASTOR HOGAN: Then Peter said unto them READER: Repent and be baptized

PASTOR HOGAN: Repent and be baptized. This is a command. Holy Spirit baptism never was a command. I challenge my opponent to read any place from the Bible where Holy Ghost baptism was ever commanded. Holy Ghost baptism was a promise, the fire baptism was ___. The only baptism commanded is water baptism. Find another baptism command. All right what did he say?

READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ

PASTOR HOGAN: In the name means by the authority. You go down to the local bank and get a check cashed in my name, that's by my authority or to jail you go. Police come in here and arrest you in the name of the law, that's by the authority. So Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name or by the authority of Jesus Christ.

READER: For the remission of sins

PASTOR HOGAN: For the remission. Remission means to cancel, brought out of the way. So I'm affirming this proposition in order to his salvation from past alien sins. Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

READER: And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

PASTOR HOGAN: Then comes the Holy Spirit, after they have obeyed the command. What is the command? Repent and be baptized. What is the promise of the result? You receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. After baptism the gift or, ladies and gentlemen, the command was to be baptized. The promise was remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. So that is water baptism because it is commanded.

The only way in the world, ladies and gentlemen, that my opponent can get around that is to get up and say that the Holy Spirit baptism was commanded because he believes in the Holy Ghost baptism. He teaches it; in fact he teaches two baptisms. He teaches baptism in the name or preaching the gospel, in the name is baptizing people. I know he's not gonna deny it because I have his book right there and I got the place marked. Yes, sir you're preaching, you're baptized it. Well if you're baptizing then you get a baptism of the Holy Spirit, you can get the Holy Spirit right now, he has two, and the Bible says there is one. Preaching is baptism? Never has been and never will be. Preaching is done to get people to submit to baptism. Coming on down. They was preaching the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ and the believers were baptized. As Acts 8:12 would be alright brethren.

READER: But when they believed Philip PASTOR HOGAN: when they believed Philip READER: Preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God PASTOR HOGAN: Preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God READER: And the name of Jesus Christ PASTOR HOGAN: and the name of Jesus Christ READER: they were baptized PASTOR HOGAN: they were baptized READER: both men and women

PASTOR HOGAN: both men and women. I ask the question: what kind of baptism was that? It couldn't have been Holy Ghost baptism because they hadn't received the Holy Ghost. The apostles had to come down Jerusalem and lay their hands on 'em in order that they receive the Holy Ghost.

And ladies and gentlemen, I will make a statement here 1, 1, I guarantee you this statement'll stand the act. I'm.., statements alright to make as long as you back 'em up with the Bible. And you know.., here is what it is: the Holy Spirit never was miraculously given, never was miraculously given without the presence of an apostle. I challenge my opponent to find anything about the Holy Ghost was miraculously given without the presence of an apostle. That's the reason I know he isn't baptized because there is no apostle here, even at... to lay his hands on him that he might receive a miraculous, a miraculous measure of it. What? I gonna let that stand as it is. The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, ladies and gentlemen, came by the laying on of the apostles hands and no other way. Laying on of the apostles hand after the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost and at the house of Cornelius. We're gonna study both of those very soon, if it's advanced by my opponent in his argument. Alright.

But they'll preach the name of Christ, they were baptized, men and women, it could not have been the Holy Ghost baptism because they didn't receive the Holy Ghost before the apostles heard about their being baptized of Philip and sent Peter and John over there. Even my opponent would tell us what kinda baptism it was that they got before they received the Holy Ghost if it wasn't baptism. And it's up to him to tell us what that baptism was. We'll wait and see if he tells us. He couldn't tell Holy Ghost baptism because they hadn't received... Go over there to the 8th chapter. Are you still there? Alright. Go over... read down there, if you please, about the third... 14th verse.

Reader and Pastor Hogan: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Now when the Apostles which were in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John.

READER: Who when they were come down PASTOR HOGAN: who when they were come down READER: prayed for them PASTOR HOGAN: prayed for them READER: that they might receive the Holy Ghost. PASTOR HOGAN: that they might receive the Holy Ghost. Why? READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) For as yet He was fallen upon none of them READER: Only they were baptized in the Lord Jesus.

PASTOR HOGAN: And so then it couldn't have been Holy Ghost baptism. He'll tell us what kind of bap.., we ask him to tell us what kinda baptism was that? Well let us if he does hear the preaching and he's filled with the Holy Spirit.

Sixth chapter of Acts. Even when he was selected as a deacon before he became an evangelist, they selected a man filled with the Holy Ghost. He was filled with the Holy Ghost, he was guided by the Holy Ghost and suddenly come to him, baptism. He wouldn't baptize one group one way and then go right down and baptize someone else another way. So Philip under the guidance of the Holy Spirit baptized a man of Eth.., of Ethiopia in water. I wonder if the Holy Ghost made a mistake. Don't come telling me that Philip made a mistake, because Philip was under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, because the Spirit told him, go near and join yourself to the chariot. He was a preaching, if you please, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He preached to that man Jesus and they went on their way til they came to certain water. And the eunuch said, see. That's literal water, that's the kind you can see. See. I'm so glad he said see. Don't know what to do if my opponent got up here and said that is spiritual water. This is water you can see. What does hinder me to be baptized? My opponent would say, 'oh, they going in the water, I'll tell you, you're wasting your time, why He nailed everything... Christ nailed that to the cross long ago.' Yet the Holy Spirit guided, and the spirit didn't tell him what my opponent would tell. That's why I say he would because I know he'd do it, I have his book. I always like to have these fellas books. I have it here. What seemed like the Holy Spirit overlooked the expediency. He didn't say, 'oh, there's nothing to water baptism here, it don't have nothing to do with your salvation there,' instead of saying that, through Philip He said, if thou believeth with all thy heart thou mayest. My subject that I'm affirming is the penitent believer is a man who is a believer when he said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They commanded the chariot to stand still. Both got out of the chariot. Well read that sir.

READER: And he commanded the chariot to stand still PASTOR HOGAN: commanded the chariot to stand still READER: And they both went down into the water

PASTOR HOGAN: Ohhhh. He didn't need that for Holy Ghost baptism. They both went down into the water. What kind of water was it? It was the water they could see. The eunuch said, see here it is. Both went down into the wa... They both, B 0 T H went down into the water.

READER: Both Philip and the eunuch PASTOR HOGAN: Both Philip and the eunuch READER: and he baptized him PASTOR HOGAN: and he baptized him READER: and they were come up out of the water PASTOR HOGAN: and they were come up out of the water READER: And the spirit of the Lord caught away Philip that the eunuch

PASTOR HOGAN: Spirit still working with the preacher. Alright. Spirit went to the preacher, not to the man, to be baptized. The spirit went to the preacher and sent the preacher to the man. And by that spirit.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you what this is. This is a clear cut, of baptism by the spirit. Baptism by the spirit. 'Why do you say it's a clear cut of baptism by the spirit, Hogan?' Said that because the spirit was the guide in this teaching. Guiding the preacher, his teaching was by the Spirit.

You know just because first Corinthians 12 and 13 says, for by one spirit are we all baptized to one body. My opponent thinks that's Holy Ghost baptism. That's not Holy Ghost baptism. I submit Holy Ghost, Holy Ghost guides in this baptism, guides in the preaching. The Holy Spirit's the teacher. And the reason we're baptized in one body by the teaching of the spirit. 'Hogan, can you, can you read where the Holy Spirit is the teacher?' Get me first Corinthians 2:13. Now Paul was talking to the Corinthians when he said, for by one spirit we all are baptized into one body. He's talking to Corinthians. Now here Paul tells 'em that, it was that spirit teaching. Alright read.

READER: Which things also we speak PASTOR HOGAN: Which things also we speak READER: Not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth PASTOR HOGAN: Not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth READER: But which the Holy Ghost teaches

PASTOR HOGAN: But which the Holy Ghost teaches. Don't you know that the Holy Ghost is a teacher. If I could get my opponent to stick to the teaching of the Holy Ghost baptizing tonight in water and for the remission of his sin, we'll do that. He teaches. No wonder he said, by one spirit all are baptized into one body. And I said this doesn't teach that the spirit is the enemy. The Holy Spirit guides. John 16 and 13, He'll guide you in all truth. And John 14:26, He will teach you all things and bring to remembrance all things that I have said unto you.

Oh, ladies and gentlemen, those Corinthians were baptized by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. About 3000 on the Day of Pentecost was baptized by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. And as a result they had the promise of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The water baptism is a burial and a resurrection. That's a water baptism.

There's no such thing as a burial and a resurrection where the Holy Ghost baptism is concerned. It is a form of Christ's burial and resurrection. It's bound to be obeyed. Romans 6:17, God be thanked ye were servants of sins but you've obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered you. Being then, and then means when, being then made free from sin. When were they made free from sin? When they've obeyed.

Oh, ladies and gentleman, we understand that by one spirit we are, we are led by the one spirit, we are baptized by the one spirit, which is the teaching of the spirit. And Galatians 5 and 18. Let's go to that and get that right quick. And then Romans 8 and 14, for by one spirit. We wanna know what by one spirit means, not the Holy Ghost baptism, it's by the teaching of the Holy Spirit who was to guide and to teach. It serveth all men. The apostle. Read.

READER: But if ye be led of the spirit PASTOR HOGAN: But if ye be led of the spirit. That's alright. READER: Ye are not under the law

PASTOR HOGAN: So we are led by, not baptized by, ye being led by the spirit, so this is by the spirit too. They were baptized, one spiritual, baptized into one body. You are led by the spirit. Romans 8:14 says what?

READER: For as many as are led by the spirit of God PASTOR HOGAN: For as many as are led by the spirit of God READER: They are the sons of God

PASTOR HOGAN: They are the sons of God. So that by one spirit in first Corinthians 12 and 13 doesn't refer to Holy Ghost baptism. Spirit instructs. Nehemiah 9 and 20, testified by the spirit of the prophet in Nehemiah 9 and 30. The prophets was moved by the spirit. I'm trying to get you to understand what by the spirit meant. Alright.

And in second Peter 1:19 and 20, we find, ladies and gentlemen, that the, the preaching was done with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. The apostle preached the gospel with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. ___ ___ ___ because time is right ___ ___. We find...I think that's enough respecting by the Holy Spirit. We'll wait til our opponent goes over to first Corinthians 12 and 13 and we'll bring the rest to you.

Ladies and gentlemen, the next argument I wanna bring to you is the part that Christ was baptized and the argument that Christ was baptized by everyone, or everyone rather was baptized when Christ was baptized; other words, Christ was baptized for you and me, we don't have be baptized in water because Christ did it. Sure He did, but He didn't do it for you nor me. He died.., He did it to fulfill all righteousness. He came to do His Father's will. And His Father had commanded baptism. He sent John to baptize. And Christ was baptized, He said to fulfill all righteousness. Now all of God's commandments are righteousness. 119 division of Psalms 172nd verse, Christ fulfilled all of God's commandments. And one of His commandments we said was baptism.

First John, I mean John 1 and 33. Christ did not say it becomes me to fulfill all righteousness, but thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. The us referred to Jesus and John. Why didn't Jesus command the disciples to teach and baptize? Why did He do that, if John had already baptized everybody? Now their contention is when John baptized Christ to fulfill all righteousness that was for everybody, He went back from.., all the way from Adam all the way down this present generation and generations to come. Well if He was ___ for everybody, I wonder why He commanded... Why did He command baptism after John had baptized. And John did the baptizing, then why didn't Jesus tell the disci.., 'what you go teach alright, but don't baptize anybody because John has already done that when he baptized Me.' And that's too ridiculous to go into, to push any farther. Why if, if, if everybody was baptized when John baptized you, what about those who rejected John's baptism? Get me Luke 7:30, Luke 7:30. To fulfill simply means to perform, to complete, to ad.., adhere to the terms of, to carry out, to execute, to put into effect, to measure it up to. And since the Master or God had sent John to baptize, it is a righteous thing because God ordered John to do it and Jesus simply fulfilled all righteousness when He come to the thing that God had commanded even, when He come to baptism. After John had baptized Him, He commanded baptism... commanded others to baptize as we have proved already. Airight, let's read that.

READER: But the Pharisees and lawyers reject, rejected the counsel PASTOR HOGAN: But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God READER: Against themselves PASTOR HOGAN: against themselves READER: being not baptized of

PASTOR HOGAN: Being not baptized of John. Now the Bible says there were some that didn't submit to John's baptism. Well John baptized Jesus. But this Book said they were not baptized of John. Well now they said John's, thus it become us to fulfill all righteousness, so when John baptized Jesus, he baptized everybody else. But this Bible said.

READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES OUT THE UNDERLINED PART.) But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him

PASTOR HOGAN: Why Luke said that just isn't true, because here's someone who wouldn't submit to John's baptism, and they reject the counsel of God against themselves. In the conversion of the household of Cornelius, Peter was guided by... Here's another by the Spirit. He was guided by the Spirit.

According to John 16 and 13, Acts 10:19 and 20. Alright. Then Acts 10-19 and 20. I want you to read that. And also first Peter 1:11 and 12. Don't bother about that. We'll get to that later. Read Acts lO:19 and 2O though.

READER: While Peter thought on the vision PASTOR HOGAN: While Peter thought on the vision READER: The spirit said unto him PASTOR HOGAN: The spirit said unto him READER: Behold three men seek thee PASTOR HOGAN: Behold three men seek thee READER: Arise therefore PASTOR HOGAN: Arise therefore READER: and get thee down PASTOR HOGAN: and get thee down READER: and go with them doubting nothing

PASTOR HOGAN: And go with them. Who said that? The spirit told him, Peter was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He went and he washed by the orders of the Spirit. Jesus had told him that the spirit when He come, He'll guide you in all truth. So he was guided by the, by the Spirit. Peter commanded them to be baptized by the authority of the Lord. Acts 10:48.

READER: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord

PASTOR HOGAN: This is one thing I want you to get. In the 1 1 th chapter of the book of Acts and the 14th verse, he said, he shall tell thee words, why thou, about who thou and all thy house shall be saved. What did Peter tell 'em?

READER: And he commanded them to be baptized PASTOR HOGAN: And he commanded them to be baptized READER: In the name of the Lord

PASTOR HOGAN: In the name of the Lord. And I tell you the only baptism commanded is water baptism. Didn't it say he commanded them to be baptized?

READER: And he commanded them to be baptized

PASTOR HOGAN: Alright he commanded. I say it's water because of His commandment. Let me prove it. Back up to the 47th verse.

READER: Can any man forbid water? PASTOR HOGAN: Oh, bless your heart. Don't want any ___. Can any man forbid water? READER: That these should not

PASTOR HOGAN: Oh my opponent would say, 'oh, hold on now. Uh uh now, no, no, no, no, no, I know that's Holy Ghost baptism.' I know it couldn't have been Holy Ghost cause they'd already received the Holy Ghost. So it couldn't.., God gave them the Holy Ghost, this is the first Gentile. I had there of course, this is what's bringing in of the Gentiles, household Cornelius. And a miracle took place, God gave the Gentiles the like gift of the Holy Spirit as He did the Jews to convince the Jews about the Gentiles accepted. Now if you doubt that, he'll read it. I just want to chall.., I want, I want that statement questioned. I have abundant proof that that is what he did it. Peter made, if you please, that same clear himself.

15th chapter of the book of Acts says again. The 16th chapter of the book, or the 15th chapter of the book of Romans and, if you please, the 17th verse is an order that the Gentiles be accepted. I'll read it all Brother Moore, it'll all come up a little later. So Peter commanded 'em and therefore he said, can any man forbid water.

READER AND PASTOR HOGAN TOGETHER: That these should not be baptized READER: Which have received the Holy Ghost

PASTOR HOGAN: Which have received the Holy Ghost. They'd already received the Holy Ghost. Now you Jews... And he took six Jewish brethren down there with him for his own protection. And you, you Jews that don't have any dealing with the Gentiles, unlawful thing to go and to keep company with one of another nation. Now can you forbid water here that God has convinced us that the Gentiles are accepted because He gave them the same measure of the Holy Spirit He did us who believed in the beginning, now he said, can any man forbid water? Can you object to water that these should not be baptized? My opponent rejects, 'you back to... oh, no, no, no, no, no, no water, no water, that's Holy Ghost baptism.' And the next verse says he commanded them to be baptized, that's water baptism. Alright. Let's read on. So we have, ladies and gentlemen, Peter commanded by the authority of the Lord. He commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord; hence it is by the authority of the Lord. It's the Lord who authorizes, it is the Lord who told him to go teach and baptize, which is water baptism because it is a command. Let me ask who can forbid water? Those that were with him were convinced because the Lord had proven to them that they were accepted- Was this a mistake? Did the Holy Spirit guide the Apostle to the mistake? Then remembered I the words of the Lord how He said, John baptized with water means Peter had forgotten. Had forgotten? Then the rest of the verse, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost was also forgotten by him, for he remembered both. Cornelius had already received the baptism of the Holy Ghost when Peter commanded him to be baptized.

Now baptism if you will is a burial and a resurrection if this is the Holy Spirit baptism then when resurrected, you're not in it. And if not in it, you don't have it, and if you don't have it, you're none of Him. Romans 8 and 9. Because the baptism called for burial and a resurrection. You're buried in it, you're raised out of it. And if you're raised out of it and you don't have it, you still don't have it, you're none of Him.

We're not gonna be discussing it because we don't have the time, the circumcision of the flesh that is of by man's hand. Under the Old Law, what the circumcision by Christ, which allowed him is in baptism performed by God as a New Testament ordinance. Started after the cross. Baptism is commanded by Christ, performed by the Holy Spirit, the operation is done by God in putting away sin in baptism. Colossians 2:11, 12 and 13.

Now one of the most ridiculous arguments that I've ever heard presented by man is the argument of the baptism has to do with the water that we read about in the seventh chapter of the book of John. I want you to go there to seventh chapter of the book of John. And 1, I just want you to just study with me that chapter. I want you to see just how ridiculous such a contention is. And I know that is the contention cause I have it right here. Alright. And I'm sure we'll hear here about it, the Doctor when he comes with his arg.... Let's read the 38th verse.

READER: For he that believeth on me PASTOR HOGAN: He that believeth on me READER: As the scripture has said PASTOR HOGAN: As the scripture has said READER: Out of his belly PASTOR HOGAN: Out of his belly READER: shall flow rivers of living water

PASTOR HOGAN: shall flow rivers of living water. And I tell you when he speaks of spiritual water, it's in water. Now do you mean to tell me.., huh? That statement, it's in here, that that is the baptism that Cornelius was to receive. The baptism that's mentioned here, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Then we are to be baptized in the water that flows out of the belly of those who believe in Christ.

(BELL RINGS)

CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Five minutes. PASTOR HOGAN: How many? CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Five. PASTOR HOGAN: Five minutes. Thank you very kindly sir. Alright, but the Bible, read further. READER: But this spake he of the spirit PASTOR HOGAN: But this spake he of the spirit READER: Which they that believe on him shall receive PASTOR HOGAN: Which they that believe on him shall receive READER: For the Holy Ghost was not yet given PASTOR HOGAN: For the Holy Ghost was not yet given READER: Because that Jesus was not yet glorified

PASTOR HOGAN: Because He was ___. He was talking about the Holy Spirit, not water. Alright. And they preached by the Holy Spirit.

One thought I wanna leave and I wanna put this here so that my opponent will tangle with it: John 3:5. John 3:5 Jesus said to Nicodemus, verily, verily, I say except a man is born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Except a man is born of water and of the spirit. That's not Holy Ghost baptism, he's born of water and of the spirit. The spirit is the teacher. Let me tell you those who surrender to the teacher, the Holy Spirit, will go into literal water and be baptized according His teaching. Acts 2 and 38. So then, I wanna leave that with you.

And another because I wanna leave a plenty for my opponent to discuss. In Hebrews 10 and 25, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, bodies washed pure water. 3 Pure water. Alright- Now, I want him to tangle with that when he comes. In Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit. The washing is first, the renewing of the Holy Spirit follows and, and one washing. Washing of water by the word. Ephesians 5 and 25. Paul, Ananias told Saul baptize by rise and be baptized and wash away your sins. (HE MISQUOTES THE VERSE, ACTS 9:18) That's a command. Water baptism, the washing, ladies and gentlemen, is of water. Alright.

Coming on down, then we have also here in John, as we said in John 3-.5, we have Nicodemus thinking it is physical birth, but Jesus gave an understanding talking about not that which is of the flesh but is giving an understanding that this had to do with the entrance into the Kingdom. The Kingdom hadn't been established but Christ is giving a condition of entrance into the Kingdom. Let me tell you, how I know. Ladies and gentlemen, a will or testaments are forced after men are dead but let me tell you, he's got to make out a will before he dies. And Christ, when He said a thing, it'll stand, said, Heaven and Earth shall pass away but My word'Il not pass away. And He told 'em and even said, except a man... And that's generic. A man means any man, is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that. And it couldn't be the Holy Spirit because he said, water and... water and the spirit. And Christ was making out His will when He died. They didn't go about carrying out that great world wide commission until after the Son of God ascended to glory, despite the Holy Spirit that guideth him into all truth.

__________________________ 3 Hebrews 10:22

If they're teaching one by the Holy Spirit and accused them of making a mistake, it's not to accuse the apostle, it's to accuse the Holy Spirit. What man'll stand up and accuse the Holy Spirit of making a mistake. Alright.

So ladies and gentlemen that's it. No way of entering the Kingdom and no one can be saved out of the Kingdom because we find that Christ did according to the first chapter Colossian, the 13th verse; who has delivered us from the power of darkness, translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son. Have to enter the Kingdom in order to be saved, and in order to enter it, you must be born of water. He'll need some proof, ladies and gentlemen, that that's not literal water. Water and the spirit, he can not enter the Kingdom of God.

CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: One minute.


PASTOR HOGAN: Uh, thank you very kindly. Only one minute.... So I want you to keep these things in mind:


NUMBER ONE: that there was one baptism. Ephesians 4:5. And I hope my point... Well, give us to understand. Said Paul commands one baptism, one ___ that is water in the next chapter and the 25th verse. Then we want him to explain who's mistaken about this. Paul said, Acts 1 and 49 is water. And this was stated 23 years after the last case of Holy Spirit baptism, which took place in AD and 41. Thank you very kindly.


DECEMBER 9,1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH TAPE 1, SIDE B:


DR. KINLEY: I am Henry C. Kinley of the Institute of Metaphysical Research, the Divine Institute of Metaphysical Research. We are holding our classes on Western and seventh... sixth, between sixth and seventh streets. I would like to say first of all in clarification of my position... I have the supposed to be negative side of this debate. And I will read it to you as Brother Hogan did. Well, I'll read both of 'em so that you get... Resolved that the scriptures which is Brother Hogan's resolution here: resolved that the scriptures teach that baptism in literal water of the penitent believer is essential to his salvation in this present Dispensation of Grace from past or alien sin.


Now I'm supposed to have the negative side. Resolve, this is my proposition: resolve that the scriptures teach that in this present Dispensation of Grace that the alien sinner is saved without literal water baptism from past or alien sins. Now, first of all I would like to say this. There is two dispensations involved in what we're talking about, to me, and I hope it is to everybody else. That's the Dispensation of the Law. Now that was closed out. Christ come to fulfill. So He said in Matthew 5:17, 1 think He knows what He was talking about, said, think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets but I come to fulfill, and verily, verily I say unto you that one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until it is all fulfilled. Now that's what He came to do is to fulfill it. Now under the Dispensation of the Law all of these carnal ordinances, every one, makes no difference which one you wanna talk about, was under the Dispensation of the Law. Now I don't mean to confuse the Abrahamic Dispensation, which was 430 years before the law. I don't wanna confuse and mess that up with the law; neither do I wanna mess up the Dispensation of Grace with the law. I am saying physical water baptism under the Dispensation of the Law, when John the Baptist come along or the forerunner of Christ come along and baptized, he baptized under the Dispensation of the Law in physical literal water. Is that understood?


If I wanted to be polytechnical about it, I would say, 'why did God send John the Baptist to baptize in literal water?' You understand? I have to know how the purpose of God is carried out. I have to understand how it's carried out in all of these dispensations and ages; in other words I have to understand the purpose of God from alpha to omega or from cosmogony to eschatology. Now those words just means beginning and end. I have to understand. Now God declared the end from the beginning, see, He said all of my counsel shall stand, Isaiah 46:9 and 10. No, it's not necessary to read it. And then I wanna tell you this, it won't be no necessity of Doctor Hogan nor Doctor Kinley nor nobody else getting up contending for literal, physical things in this present dispensation. They're not here. You understand? This is another dispensation.


Then I wanna say this, and I would like for this to be made real good and clear: Paul was made a minister of the Gentiles. Yes I know he preached to the Jew. Jews first. Nobody can show in this, in, in this Bible, I'm talking about, I'm not talking about the book I wrote, I'm talking about the Bible, see, where God ever sent, at any time, before or since, under the Dispensation of the Law or under the Dispensation of the Grace, never sent nobody, not one apostle to baptize no Gentile in literal water. Not in the Book. Yes, I know Peter down in the 10th chapter of Acts of Apostles commanded Cornelius and his household to be baptized in literal water. I know all of that. I'm not here to dispute with what's written down there in the Book. I'm here to discuss my understanding and his understanding of what is written in the Book. Now before the law, I'm talking about Abraham, Melchizedek, Isaac and Jacob. See? I wanna get them both dispensations in. God had made a promise to Abraham that in his seed he would bless all the families of the Earth. It is Paul's contention, I have to cut these things up and make 'em short, Christ is the Seed of Abraham. Do you understand that? And it is by faith in Jesus Christ, not only to the Jews but also to the Gentiles, it's by faith in Jesus Christ that a man is saved. That is the promise. God promised to save if you believe in Jesus Christ. That was a promise. Do you understand that?


Christ was crucified out there on Golgotha. And it is by your faith and Him being the Seed of Abraham that God said He would save, so therefore we're saved by faith through grace, the grace of God. That's how we're saved, not by no carnal... And let me tell you this, while I'm here, that we might get the record straight. The Children of Israel under the Dispensation of the Law, all of 'em I'm talking about, and Moses lead 'em out of the land of Egypt, they were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea. The 10th chapter of first Corinthians Paul said, Moreover brethren I would not that you should be ignorant, how all of our fathers was baptized in the cloud and in the sea. Now is that straight? Now Moses was sent to do that, bring the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. And then after they went out of the land of Egypt, I have to cut it short, I don't wanna go through the desert and all around that, just wanna get to Mount Sinai. And from Mount Sinai God spoke and gave the commandments. Is that clear? That was on the sixth day of June, same day as Pentecost. That was God speaking from Mount Sinai. It was God speaking from Mount Zion on the Day of Pentecost. How? Speaking through those apostles. That's what that was.


Now God doesn't want.., which thing I had to learn, see, it isn't your head and your carnal conceptions, your ideas, and traditions and opinions. It's not that. Do you understand? And I... right there I'd like to say this so somebody didn't know something about my back drop. I was a Holiness preacher in the Church of God for about fifteen years, had water baptism debate, taught it just like my opponent did. Believed it like he believes it. Taught it like he taught it. You see what I mean? Now listen, you asked that we stay strictly on the subject. Is that right? Literal, physical water baptism is it essential in this present dispensation? I say no. Well now if you're gonna stay on water baptism then don't mix it up, which he has already done. Since he, when he was on the floor, when he was speaking here, but it's apparent that he didn't know that that was what he was doing. I'll tell you something about it. The fifth chapter of Ephesians, the third chapter of Titus and the fifth verse. I want 'em read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Husbands love your wives


DR. KINLEY: Husbands love your wives


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Even as Christ also loved the church


DR. KINLEY: Even as Christ also loved the church


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And gave himself for it


DR. KINLEY: And gave himself for it


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: That He might sanctify and cleanse it


DR. KINLEY: That He might sanctify and cleanse it


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: With the washing of water


DR. KINLEY: With the washing of water


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: By the Word


DR. KINLEY: By the Word. So what? Christ is the Word of God. He did wash the disciples feet in the 13th chapter of Saint John, but He didn't do no baptizing out there in Aenon, or neither did He baptize any in the River Jordan. He doesn't. His disciples did, but He didn't. Now don't you try to tell me that Paul is talking about here in the fifth chapter of Ephesians, Christ baptized somebody by saying husbands love your wife even as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of the water by the Word. Yes He washed 'em, the disciples. That was under the Dispensation of the Law, if you please. Now if He come to fulfill, as my worthy opponent says, He did. But I say to you, why did He wash the disciples feet there? He's fulfilling all that's written in the Law and in the prophets. Then Moses that wrote the law, took the commandment from God in obedience, have to cut it short, brought Aaron, Nadab and Abihu to the door of the tabernacle and washed them in physical water and put on the linen garments before they could be ministers in the tabernacle or in the sanctuary. Now if Christ is gonna fulfill that, then He'll have to wash the disciples feet, I mean in water. Physical water. Literal water. You see that now?


Now then Moses, I have to go back here to get the continuity of thought together. If Moses was sent to bring all of Israel out of Egypt because God had promised to deliver'em out of Egypt. And all of Israel was baptized in the cloud and in the sea unto Moses. I'm talking about how the purpose comes down now. See, John the Baptist has got to come and do the same things, baptizing in physical, literal water. He was sent to prepare the way of the Lord. That's what he was sent for. That was under the Dispensation of the Law that He was baptized in literal water. What's the significance of it in the first place, the baptism of repentance. See? What's the significance of the baptism of repentance? Get the point? John's baptizing in literal, physical water under the Dispensation of the Law, before Christ died, if you please. If you go back in the fifth chapter of Romans and come down from the 14th, on down to.., just read right on, forget the chapters and the verses. Just read right on, cause there wasn't any breaks in the text, wasn't even in as you have in your Bible ___, the subject sometimes is divided from the predicate. For example, suppose I quote the first verse of the sixth chapter, said, what shall we say then. 'What are you talking about?' That's what it says there.


Now if I wanna know what he's talking about I have to go up and get the subject. Go on back in the fifth chapter and get the subject. Death reigned from Adam to Moses after the similitude of Adam's transgression, even over them that had not sinned, is that right, for he was a figure, a figure of him that was to come; in other words, He was the second Adam. In the first Adam all died, so in the, in the second Adam all be made alive. And anything that happened to the first Adam, do you understand, in the second, everybody, future generations and everybody else, nobody wants to argue about that. Then anything that happened to the second Adam, who was a figure of Him that was to come. Do you understand? One is the degenerator, the other is a regenerator. You see what I mean? Yes everybody, so say the apostle, and I'm talking about the Apostle Paul... I remember one time we were discussing and somebody got up in the back in the Church over on Adam Street and said, I said this, but I said then, I did not say it. See. Now let's finish up this, let's finish up this Ephesians business first. Not Ephesians, but


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Titus 3:5.


DR. KINLEY: Ti... No, I'm talking about the fifth chapter of Ephesians. Husbands love your wives. Go on down and read it on down and get the last two verses.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: That He might present it to himself a glorious church not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing


DR. KINLEY: Uh huh.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: But that it should be holy and without blemish


DR. KINLEY: Um hum.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: So ought men to love their wives as their own body.


DR. KINLEY: Uh huh.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: He that loveth his wife, loveth himself


DR. KINLEY: Um hum.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: for no man ever yet hateth his own flesh


DR. KINLEY: .Um hum.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: but nourishes it and cherishes it even as the Lord the Church.


DR. KINLEY: Alright, just stop right there for a minute. Let me make a comment. Now I used to teach this, like this, that Paul was talking about a man and his wife. Get it? Just like my opponent said, he called this the washing, water, you understand, by the Word. It was the washing of water by the Word, under the Dispensation of the Law, He did wash them disciples. And let me tell you this, right when He was washing or when they were washed with the water by the Word, the Word said to them, you don't believe it I'll read, see, you know not what I do now but you shall know hereafter. Isn't that right? It was under the Dispensation of the Law before they got the Holy Ghost that they didn't know what it was all about, but after they got the Holy Ghost, they knew that it was the washing of regeneration by the Holy Ghost, and that's what Paul is talking about.


SOMEONE: That's right, that's right.


DR. KINLEY: And that was not physical, literal water out there, understand, baptism, I mean that type of thing, cause Christ didn't baptize. The third chapter of Saint John said that His disciples bap.., but Jesus didn't baptize none of 'em. That right?


SOMEONE: Right.


DR. KINLEY: Now I want you to read the last two verses.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: This is a great mystery.


DR. KINLEY: This is a GREEAAATTT mystery. You see it? This is a great mystery. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: But I speak concern


DR. KINLEY: Well, I'm not talking about what you think, but I speak concerning...


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Christ and the church


DR. KINLEY: Christ and the Church. You see that now? Christ and the Church. Now you can't find nothing nowhere in the Bible where Christ ever baptized anybody. That's just... now that's what we're discussing. Do you see what I mean? So don't go over there and try to read that, see, and say that's a physical, literal water baptism ministered by Christ. Don't say that. Now I want you to get Titus 3:5.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Not by works of righteousness


DR. KINLEY: Listen, let me tell you. It is not by works of righteousness, not that at all. Now you're reading the Bible, aren't you?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Yes, sir.


DR. KINLEY: Now listen you don't need to go and get in no water and think that's some work of righteousness that you would do, cause it's not by works of righteousness. Would you please read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Not by works of righteousness which we have done


DR. KINLEY: Which we have done. Now if you think going out there getting baptized is a work of righteousness and it's necessary for you to do it, it's not by that.


SOMEONE: Right.


DR. KINLEY: Which we have done or gonna do. But what is it?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: But according to His mercy


DR. KINLEY: But according to His mercy. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: He saved us


DR. KINLEY: He saved us. You understand? Do you see that now? How's that?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: By the washing of regeneration


DR. KINLEY: Now you see you're right back at the same thing. And He's talking about that in Ephesians. By the washing of regeneration. And what?


DR. KINLEY: And the renewing of the Holy Ghost


DR. KINLEY: And the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Now that's how that is. See. You see that now? Now I want you to read somewhere else. So don't go messing that up with water baptism out there like, like that. Now I want you to get John 3:5, since my opponent read it.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Jesus answered, verily


DR. KINLEY: Jesus answered, talking to Nicodemus now.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Verily, verily I say unto thee


DR. KINLEY: Verily, verily I say unto you


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Except a man be born of water and of the spirit


DR. KINLEY: Except a man be born of water and of the spirit


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God


DR. KINLEY: He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Now Nicodemus is one of the Sanhedrin council. He was a scribe, was a smart man in the law and also in the testimony, is that right, or in the prophets. And he went to see Jesus by night. Well I'm not gonna have anything to say about him going at night. Of course there was a reason for it. See? Now this is under the Dispensation of the Law, see, wherein that John was baptizing and Jesus told him, 'now you go on out, you just might as well go on out, get baptized just like all.., I mean in physical, literal water, 'and not your high standard. You see? 'John was sent to baptize in physical literal water, Nicodemus, now except you be baptized in that water you will never see the Kingdom of God.' That was under the Dispensation of the Law. He was talking to Nicodemus. And Nicodemus had to submit just like all the rest of 'em that John baptized. Now do you see that? Now I want you to see and I want you to understand two important things. Number one, when Moses come out of Egypt brought them, see brought them, they was Israelites, out, I want you to know that not one Gentile was baptized in that cloud and in that sea as were the Children of Israel. I want you to know that. Well if that's so, then John the Baptist can't baptize no Gentiles. Now do you see that? Now that's nothing else but just repeating the thing over and over and over, God's purpose carried out, see. None were baptized unto Moses, see, then there wasn't any baptized. Now that's a fact, that's a Bible fact. See? Now look, listen, Pharaoh and his host pursued the Children of Israel. For the sake of explanation let's say they was Gentiles, and they went into the Red Sea. Now I said Pharaoh and his host went into the Red Sea. What happened? Just got drownded and you know it. Is that, is that, is that alright?


SOMEONE: Yeah.


DR. KINLEY: Oh, it'll just have to be, see. They died there. Now do you see what happened to them. Now any time a Gentile, I don't care what dispensation, I told you that any time a Gentile set his foot in any water, physical, literal water at any time, see, that's out of harmony, you see. Now when my worthy opponent did and said, Philip went down to Samaria and preached Christ to those people. Is that right? That's the way it is. That's the way he said it. Philip did go down and preach Christ to those people. A lot of 'em were healed down there from diseases and things. And Philip did have the Holy Ghost, cause Philip was a deacon. And they told him up at Jerusalem when the argument or the complaint come up about the widows, about the widows and orphans being neglected in the daily administrations, apostles said, 'why should we stop preaching the Word to serve tables, look ye out seven men full of the Holy Ghost.' Why seven? There ain't but seven days in a week. So it's one for each day,


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


in whom we may appoint over this business, see. Now if we're not gonna come down here.., that's the apostles leave preaching the Word to serve tables, physical food, we sure ain't gonna stop here and go down there and fool with dipping 3,000 folks in the water. The food is just as physical as the water, and the water's just as physical as the food. You see? Now none of 'em down at Samaria never got the Holy Ghost till Peter and John went down there. And when Peter and John went down there they receiv.., ain't that right, the Book said not a one of them received the Holy Ghost in Samaria. I wonder why? When Philip was down there. Now you look straight at the purpose of God and what Jesus said, and then you could tell the difference, you can tell why didn't none of 'em down there receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John went down there. Jesus told them, you go back and tarry at Jerusalem until you receive the Holy Ghost. Is that right? And then you, you eleven men shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, not the deacons, not Philip. You shall be witnesses unto me. See? That's why they didn't receive the Holy Ghost until Peter and John went down. They were His witnesses. He appeared to them after He raised from the dead. And Philip.., nothing said about Philip being present. You see what I mean? You see that now? And Philip went down, let's get this preaching in the name straight too, or baptizing in the name straight. That seems to be where we're all messed up at. I wanna go right back, see I don't want nothing else, only just what, what Doctor Hogan used, see. I want John 7:38. Jesus talking, not me. Please read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: He that believeth on me


DR. KINLEY: Now Jesus said this, he that believeth on me. Now I didn't say that, Peter didn't say it, Paul didn't say it, Jesus Christ said it. He that believeth on me.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: As the scripture hath said


DR. KINLEY: Now as the scripture had said. Let us get that straight too, see, because it's apparent that we don't even know what scripture is in it's true divine etymological sense of the word. Scriptures was written before Jesus was born. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Acts of Apostles, the epistles, see, in the true divine sense of the word, they are not scriptures. In the lexicological meaning of the word.., get a dictionary, Webster's, or your newspaper, anything, that's script in that sense. Do you understand? Now when Jesus was speaking to His disciples, said, he that believeth on me as the scripture has said, He means according to the Law and to the prophecy. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and epistles, they were not written at the time He spake, and He spoke it under the Dispensation of the Law. Said, now you that believe on me as the scripture has said, not no tradition, not as Paul said, not as Peter said, but as the scriptures back there have said, because Peter and Paul wasn't, they wasn't in them, has no mention. Is that right? Now do you see through what I'm talking about? I like to clarify these things as I go. This is not a Bible reading contest. See? It's a understanding, that's the purpose for this debate. He that believeth on me as the scriptures had said.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Out of his belly


DR. KINLEY: Out of his belly


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Shall flow rivers


DR. KINLEY: Shall flow rivers


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Of living water


DR. KINLEY: Of living water. Now listen, when them boys believed on Jesus Christ as the scripture had said. Please read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: But this spake He


DR. KINLEY: But this spake He


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Of the spirit


DR. KINLEY: Of the spirit


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Which they that believe on Him should receive


DR. KINLEY: Which they that believe on Him should receive and they received that on the Day of Pentecost. Read please.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: For the Holy Ghost was not yet


DR. KINLEY: Now what He said was that the Holy Ghost wasn't yet given. You see what I mean? And every last one of 'em that received the Holy Ghost, and spoke on the Day of Pentecost there was just rivers of living water running that day. And better than 3,000 people were baptized in it.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


And thereafter the Lord added to the church daily, such as should be saved. That right? Now my opponent went back in Matthew, Mark, Luke and expressed the great commission and said that Jesus said, Matthew 28:19, 1 want you to read it.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Go ye therefore


DR. KINLEY: Go ye therefore


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And teach all nations


DR. KINLEY: And teach all nations


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Baptizing


DR. KINLEY: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


Hold on there, see. That's Gentiles too. See that now? Go ye therefore and teach, teach all nations. Is that right? Would you please read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Baptizing them


DR. KINLEY: Baptizing them


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: In the name of the Father


DR. KINLEY: No, don't, don't put it like that. Baptizing'em in the water.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


Now listen, do you mean to tell me that God, that Paul said, was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Now do you mean to stand up and tell me if that's the truth then He ain't got sense enough to tell 'em to go and baptize in water and the name if that's what He meant. You don't see nothing about no water there. Go and baptize in the name. Now he's.... my worthy opponent said to baptize 'em in the name means to baptize 'em in water by the authority of Jesus Christ. it's not in the book.


(BELL RINGS)


IDMR TIMEKEEPER, FRED ALLEN: Five minutes.


DR. KINLEY: Alright. In Luke, same commission, that remission of sin should be preached in His name beginning at Jerusalem. Is that right?


SOMEONE: Right.


DR. KINLEY: Acts of Apostles, 4:12 says this, Peter said, there is no other name given under Heaven whereby man can be saved, saving the name of Jesus Christ. And when you preach with the Holy Ghost in the name, you are baptizing them people in the name, not in the water. There's one more thing I wanna call your attention to. Get down there in the second chapter of Colossians. See, and I just wanna tighten this down real quick. I want, I want my opponent to pull the lid off the thing.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Beware. Second Colossians, 8th verse


DR. KINLEY: That's right.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Beware if any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit


DR. KINLEY: Now you watch out lest any man spoil you through philosophy in being deceived.


READER: After the traditions of men


DR. KINLEY: Now, you see, after the traditions of men. This is a man made thing baptizing somebody in water . See. Somebody said, 'well listen here, didn't Paul baptize, what about the 18th chapter of Acts of Apostles, didn't Paul baptize the household of Stephanas and Gaius in physical, literal water.' Yes he did. Then turned right around and wrote them people a letter, the first chapter of Corinthians, and said this, that Christ didn't send him to baptize but to preach the Gospel. Now you tell me, you mean to tell me that Jesus Christ was so ignorant until He sent out eleven men to baptize in water and here's one He didn't send to do that. Sent him to baptize in the name, just like all the rest of 'em. That right? And again I wanna say this, since we're talking about the 1 Oth chapter of Acts of Apostles, where Peter commanded 'em to be baptized. That right? But listen here the Holy Ghost poured out the... I mean God poured out the Holy Ghost on them people before Peter got'em in the water. I wonder why? You see.


(PAUSE IN TAPE)


DR. KINLEY: but Peter withdrew his statement, in the llth chapter of Acts of Apostles, said then remembered I the word of the Lord. You see what I mean? Oh it's there, you can't fix it. And then I wanna tell you this. Now Peter went down... and God sent Peter down there to Cornelius' house. And they were the first Gentiles that was brought in. God is bringing in Gentiles, reason why He poured that Holy Ghost out on 'em, you understand, you understand, without dipping 'em in water, cause that's the way He made the promise to Abraham. Now He's bringing I em in by faith. And therefore He poured out the Holy Ghost while Peter was just speaking. You see? You see it? Now was that, was God mistaken about it or was Peter. See. He's a witness, because John did.., that was even baptize the Jews, John's Baptism before they got the Holy Ghost. The Gentiles. And I wanna tell you this in the 1 lth chapter of Romans and the 17th verse and also in the 15th chapter of Saint John, Jesus said, I am the true vine, every branch that bears not fruit in me, He said, His Father took it away. Isn't that right? We can't argue with the fact that was under the Dispensation of the Law when you go back


(BELL RINGS)


and the Gentiles were, the Jews were broken off and the Gentiles, the 11th chapter and the 17th verse, were grafted in. How'd you do that? By faith.


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)


PASTOR HOGAN: ___ I am told that Henry Clifford Kinley, DD, PhD. I wonder where'd he get his degree.


(PASTOR HOGAN AND AUDIENCE LAUGH)


Anyone that issue to him a degree, as far off as he is, is certainly off himself. I think the man is just as illiterate as one who hasn't graduated from high school,


(AUDIENCE IS STILL LAUGHING)


and call hisself DD, PhD. PhD simply means a Doctor of Philosophy, but it certainly doesn't mean that connected with him, it must mean post hole digger.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


As I ___ to refer to men, I don't make any such claim. I wouldn't make a claim like that and get up and murder the King's English as he does, and as void of understanding as he is, to say that he's a DD, a Doctor of Divinity and a PhD, a Doctor of Philosophy. Out of all of it, all that I've heard, this is the worst. Now just before he sit down he said that.., he's started to recall Colossians 2:8, and he said, I want my opponent to pull the lid off the thing. Brother you're so right, I'm gonna pull the lid off of what you said.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


Gonna pull it off. Yes, sir. You're gonna get your wish, because I'm gonna pull it off.


SOMEONE: He's right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Now you said that God poured out the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost on those Gentiles before they were baptized. You say, 'I wonder why?' Well, I'm gonna tell you why. I thought you knew the Bible. Get me the 15th chapter of Romans and the 16th verse. Let's find out why. Get me the 15th chapter of Acts. And I want you to start at the seventh verse and read it. And the Bible will tell you why. If you knew your Bible you wouldn't wonder why. I don't wonder why God poured it out on them. It was to convince those Jews that the Gentiles accepted, it was that the Jews might accept the Gentiles. That's why Peter said, can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost ___. Poured it out on 'em, so the Gentiles.., so the Jews would baptize the Gentiles. That is why. Read it. The 15th chapter of Romans, 16th verse.


READER: That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles


PASTOR HOGAN: That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ


READER: To the Gentiles


PASTOR HOGAN: To the Gentiles


READER: Ministering the gospel of God


PASTOR HOGAN: Ministering the gospel


READER: That the offering up


PASTOR HOGAN: That the offering


READER: Up


PASTOR HOGAN: Up of the Gentiles


READER: Might be acceptable


PASTOR HOGAN: Might be acceptable


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN TOGETHER: Being sanctified by the Holy Ghost


PASTOR HOGAN: That is why it's poured out on'em, so they'd accept'em at that time. Here he don't know straight up, when it comes to the Bible. A PhD. I, I, I, I thought we were gonna have a debate here, when I read that. And I told the son.., and some of 'em I said, 'why we have a man with a DD and a PhD degree.' Come to find out, he's a minnow, like all the rest of 'em around here that I been... Now I wanna go over something he, he said here that he didn't wanna bother the things that I didn't say. He just wanna bother with the things that I said. Did I go back talking about Israelites baptized in the Red Sea? Well then he, he, he must have wanted to say things that I hadn't said, because I didn't mention the Israelites being baptized in the Red Sea. He said, 'not a Gentile there.' Said, 'John baptized here, and not a Gentile...' Nobody said he baptized Gentiles. The commission baptism was given after John's baptism. After Christ died. John's baptism had ended and the commission baptism... Jesus told the disciples, Matthew 28:19, go teach all nations baptizing them and he admits that that included Gentiles. That is given after John's baptism had ended. I told you we were talking about the commission baptism. Why are we arguing about John's baptism? I didn't bring you anything about John's baptism, and upholding John's baptism. I know John's baptism ended at the cross, as a ___. Follow some man that is ___ the scripture, didn't know John's baptism had passed and baptized the people under John's baptism. They were baptized again. Go over there and get it. 18th chapter, the 24th verse. And we'll start.


READER: And a certain Jew named Apollos


PASTOR HOGAN: Certain Jew named Apollos


READER: Born in Alexandria an eloquent man


PASTOR HOGAN: Born in Alexandria an eloquent man


READER: Mighty in the scriptures


PASTOR HOGAN: Mighty in the scriptures


READER: Came to Ephesus


PASTOR HOGAN: Came to Ephesus


READER: This man was instructed in the way of the Lord


PASTOR HOGAN: Man is instructed in the way of the Lord


READER: Being fervent in the spirit he spoke


PASTOR HOGAN: Being fervent in the spirit


READER: He spoke and taught diligently the things of the Lord


PASTOR HOGAN: Spoke and taught diligent all the things of the Lord


READER: Knowing the baptism...


PASTOR HOGAN: Knowing only the baptism of John. He didn't know enough. He know only the bap.., he didn't know John's baptism had passed. Around here wasting time on John's baptism, I haven't tried to uphold John's baptism. That wasn't my affirmative. I said the commissioned baptism that was given after Christ died. Made it plain. What's the matter with the man? Trying to tell you, 'Do you understand?' He doesn't understand himself. And how could you understand with all that conglomeration he's advancing here. Alright. But what happened?


READER: And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue


PASTOR HOGAN: Began to speak boldly in the synagogue


READER: Whom when Aquilla and Priscilla had heard


PASTOR HOGAN: When Aquilla and Priscilla heard


READER: They took him unto them


PASTOR HOGAN: They took him unto them


READER: And expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.


PASTOR HOGAN: And expounded unto him the way of God more perfect. But he had baptized the people. What had happened to him? Go over to 19th chapter.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES OUT THE UNDERLINED PORTION) And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and finding certain disciples. He said unto them, Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? And they said unto him, we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


PASTOR HOGAN: Hold it. We haven't so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. You know why? They were baptized unto John's baptism. And Jesus had commanded the discip.. to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Ghost. And when they said, we have not so much as heard it whether there be any Holy Ghost. Told you, there was nothing wrong with the baptism, because Christ had commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the next verse, you -, under what then were you baptized? What did they say?


READER: And they said unto John's baptism


PASTOR HOGAN: And they said unto John's baptism


READER: Then said Paul


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE AT THE SAME TIME. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES THE UNDERLINED PORTION OUT.) Then said Paul, John's verily baptized with the baptism of repentance saying unto the people, that they should (ADDED BY PASTOR HOGAN: COME OUT AND BE OB..) believe on him which should come after him, that is., on Christ Jesus. When they heard this,


READER: They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus


PASTOR HOGAN: When they heard this. When they heard this. Went back and did it right. And that's what Doctor Kinley's gonna have to do or to Heaven he'll never go.


SOMEONE: Amen.


PASTOR HOGAN: He'll have to go back ___ ___. They had to go back, they was baptized how?


READER: In the name of the Lord Jesus


PASTOR HOGAN: In the name of the Lord Jesus. And he knows, I know, and you know, well we all know that in the name means by the authority. And he denies that is a reflection on him as a minister. When he said they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus that is by the authority of the Lord Jesus. Jesus told men to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Spirit.


TAPE 2, SIDE A:


PASTOR HOGAN: Water baptism, I say repeatedly, I say repeatedly that water baptism is the only baptism commanded. Why didn't he let it alone, why didn't he let it alone? Because he knew to let it . That's why he left it alone. He knew he couldn't name another baptism. Therefore when they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, they'd baptize by the authority. This wasn't Holy Ghost baptism either because they hadn't got it yet. Paul taught'em and baptized 'em and laid his hands on 'em that they received the Holy Ghost. Read on.


READER: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them


PASTOR HOGAN: Alright. What happened?


READER: The Holy Ghost came on them


PASTOR HOGAN: Alright. They received a baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. That's the baptism Christ commanded himself to administer which was water baptism. And Doctor Kinley knows it. The trouble with him.., and let me tell you so plain, 1, I'm, I'm sure, I know, I know at least one of his followers know better.


SOMEONE: He might.


PASTOR HOGAN: I know at least one whether that'll do or not, because he's been exposed to it. He know better. I'll tell you, I drop my head in shame. If I was every one of 'em, I'd leave here with my head in sh.., dropped in shame if that's all I had to defend what I believed in and accepted. If that's who you got to defend. Alright. We're discussing the Holy Ghost baptism, because after they were baptized again, Paul laid his hands on 'em, and the Holy Ghost was given. I say again that the Holy Spirit has never been administered in a miraculous form without the presence of an apostle. That's why I know he hasn't been baptized with it. That's why I know you haven't had a, he doesn't have a miraculous gift of it, because it came through the laying on the apostles' hands. I challenge you to point out in one time one gift by the Holy Spirit who's administered in an miraculous way without the presence of an apostle. He couldn't do it if his very life depended upon it. Alright. Come on down. He said that, that Christ didn't baptize anyone. What he needs to point out where Christ baptized. Said I couldn't prove that Christ baptized anyone. I never said Christ did these things. Christ commissioned His disciples to do it. Christ told men to do it, that's my argument. They baptized by Christ's authority. Christ sent men to do it, and the only baptism man can administer is water. And the only baptism, ladies and gentlemen, by decree, that commanded is water, the only one that, command. In Ephesians 5. Ephesians 5. In trying to get some of that.., there his later arguments, we'll get to the third part of it just a little later on. He went to Ephesians 5 and had the gentleman to read it. He started with the 25th verse, husbands love your wife, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. But he wanted.., he wanted him to read on, he wanted them to read on. It says the washing of water by the word. That's what the Bible said. Isn't that right?


AUDIENCE: That's right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Alright. But he wanted to read on and went on reading about a husband and his wife. And his said, 'I was in the Holiness Church for so many years, and that he said that, 'I, I used to believe like Doctor Hogan.' Well, I believe he'd have been better off, if you'd stayed in


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


the Holiness Church. You believe according to the Bible. I think this is called the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research? Is that right?


SOMEONE: Right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Looks like doctor haven't researched enough. He need to go back and search some more, because according to his argument here, he hasn't searched enough. But he said that Ephesians 5:25 was in the Dispensation of the Law. Did you hear? Didn't you... he said?


SOMEONE: That's right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Under the Dispensation of the Law. Yes. Ephesians 2. I want you to start at the 11th verse were the apostle Paul was talking and he spoke of the Jews who were the Gentile, ah, yeah, that were were called the, the Gentiles rather were called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands. He says at that time.


READER: You were without Christ


PASTOR HOGAN: You were without Christ


READER: Being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel


PASTOR HOGAN: Being aliens. Not now but at that time, you are aliens of the commonwealth of Israel


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER) And strangers from the covenants of promise having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus.


PASTOR HOGAN: But now, not back under the Dispensation of the Law, but now and forever time. Now in Christ Jesus,


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. UNDERLINED PORTIONS WERE LEFT OUT BY PASTOR HOGAN.) Ye who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace who had made both one,


READER: and hath broken down the middle wall of partition


PASTOR HOGAN: And what?


READER: Who hath made both one


PASTOR HOGAN: And did what?


READER: And hath broken down the middle wall of partition


PASTOR HOGAN: It couldn't have been to the Dispensation of the Law because Christ had broken down that middle wall of partition that stood between Jew and Gentiles and having


READER AND


PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. PASTOR HOGAN LEAVES OUT UNDERLINED PORTION.) abolished in his flesh the enmity even the law of commandments contained in ordinances to make in himself of twain one new man so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.



PASTOR HOGAN: When Christ died on the cross, he broke down that middle wall of partition, if you please, and therefore they were reconciled into the one body. This was not under the Dispensation of the Law but under grace.


AUDIENCE: Right.



PASTOR HOGAN: You tell that to those who, who will listen to you and not God. Because the middle wall of partition has been abolished. He said now. Now is an adverb of time. And those very people. Why, ladies and gentlemen, the apostle told them that there is one baptism. And to those very people that he pointed out that the, the law had been abolished, why, why sir, he told 'em that one baptism was water, in Ephesians 5 and 25. But I have all the arguments. Titus 3:5. Go over there and get him, I learned when I was a boy, if I wanna catch a rabbit, follow him to his hole and smoke him out. I'm going right where he went to.


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) Titus 3:5.


READER: Not by works of righteousness


PASTOR HOGAN: Listen, oh, he starts on down. Not by works of righteousness.


READER: Which we've done


PASTOR HOGAN: Which we've done. Even said, 'don't get in the water, that's a work of righteousness.' So he said not works of righteousness which you done.


READER: But according to his mercy he saved us


PASTOR HOGAN: But accord.., that's what he said, according to His mercy, He saved us.


READER: By the washing of regeneration


PASTOR HOGAN: And., wait a minute, you know he paused there. Yeah, he's driving his point. He sure did. He sure did a job there when he said, He saved us, according to His mercy He saved us. He's called ___ ___. And you know I wasn't gonna let him get away with it, and he told the fellow to read on and he ruined hisself. Alright. By the washing of regeneration,


READER: And renewing of the Holy Ghost


PASTOR HOGAN: Renewing of the Holy Ghost. So the washing of this generation was the Holy Ghost because the renewing of the Holy Ghost came after the washing of water. But you see here's where he missed it. He started at the fifth verse when he should have started at the fourth verse and he'd had got an understanding of what he's talking about. Actually that's the trouble with these fellas, they'll just get the part they want and leave the other part alone. Now we're gonna start, we're gonna start the fourth verse and this'll tell you what he's talking about when he said not by works of righteousness. This isn't Hogan, this is God's work. Read the fourth verse.


READER: But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward men appeared


PASTOR HOGAN: After that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared. How?


READER: Not by works of righteousness which we have done


PASTOR HOGAN: Then Christ didn't come by works of righteousness which we have done, by no goodness on man's part that caused Christ to come, but God's love and kindness were responsible for it.


AUDIENCE: Right, right.


PASTOR HOGAN: What he's talking about your life talking about. 'Not by works of right.., so won't get in some water.' Well I declare, isn't that something, coming from a PhD.


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)


After the kindness and the love of God, our Savior toward man appeared not by works of righteousness which we've done, but according to His mercy He saved us and told you how: by the washing of regeneration. That's a washing, ladies and gentlemen, that accomplished all, it is connected with regeneration. Jesus said, John 3 and 5, except a man is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. And you know what he did? I told you, he got it, told you he'd read it. Went to John 7, the seventh chapter of John and read the 38th verse. John 7 and 38. Now read that, go back there. Go.


READER: He that believeth on me


PASTOR HOGAN: He that believeth on me


READER: As the scripture has said


PASTOR HOGAN: Now he said that the scripture has said and he went far enough to say, 'well any writing is scripture, the newspaper's scripture.' Do you remember that? Well, bless your heart, that didn't say as scripture has said, it said as the.., just go there and read that.


READER: That's right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Read it.


READER: He that believeth on me as the scriptures hath said


PASTOR HOCIAN: Why the is an.., that's an article, this isn't pointing to the newspaper. There now, they're talking about the scriptures. Wanna a definite article. That's definite. The scriptures are sacred, and out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER.) But this spake he of the Spirit, (PASTOR HOGAN ADDED: FOR THE SPIRIT IS NOT) which. they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.


PASTOR HOGAN: And yet he goes to work to show that is given on the Day of Pentecost. Certainly it was. I agree with him a hundred percent. Holy Ghost's a leader, when it come to that teaching and baptizing, when it comes, you said of Luke said, the remission of sin to be preached in the name. That did not start before the Day of Pentecost for they had to wait until the Spirit came to guide. And the Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost. Isn't that right? And so he said, Doc Kinley, talking about how they teach, 'then there's when out of their belly flow rivers living waters and over 3,000 baptized in those rivers.'


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)


Ladies and gentlemen, he spoke of the Holy Spirit like his believers would receive. And when the Holy Spirit came, they did preach the gospel of Christ, they spake as the Spirit gave the utterance. What? After they had heard the preaching which drove convictions their heart, they wanted to know what to do. Peter told 'em, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission. Remission means the canceling, the blotting out or the doing away with your sins. In the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So they were not baptized in the Holy Ghost, which he styled as rivers. They were commanded to be baptized, which was water baptism because it was commanded and they were to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, which he styled as rivers, in which they were baptized, they received the gift of the Holy Ghost after repenting and being baptized. That is the teaching, ladies and gentlemen. Alright. So many things, I would like to mention, I have so many... several arguments that I'd like to advance, but I'd wanna call attention to a few more of these points, of these things rather that he advanced. He said that the two.., there were two dispensational missions, and Christ came to fulfill the law. Certainly He did. Christ came to fulfill the law in the fifth chapter of the book of Matthew. And when the things fulfilled, that's the end of it. Certainly. The end of the, end of the old Mosaic Law. It ended at the cross. Christ came to fulfill it and He did fulfill it. When the thing's fulfilled, He said that's the end of it. No wonder we read in the 10th chapter of Romans, the fourth verse, for Christ is the end of law for righteousness. Now listen Doctor Kinley had an appointment to meet me here tonight in this discussion. You know why he's here? He's fulfilling that promise. Well after that promise has been fulfilled, are you looking for him here any more? No, that ended. Well when Christ came, He came to fulfill the Law and He did it, for in the 17th chapter of John and the fourth verse, He said, I've finished the work that Thou gavest me to do. He finished, so the law ended when He died upon the cross, but this baptism under discussion was commanded after He died on the cross. After He arose, He appeared to the disciples and told 'em to go teach and baptize. And then, I'm gonna have to hit it here and there, because so many... and I'm trying to get to a few rebuttal argument. He called attention to Paul, admitted Paul baptized Crispus and Gaius. And he also baptized the household of Stephan,


SOMEONE: That's right.


DR. KINLEY: but he proceeded to, to show that Paul was not supposed to do what he did, because Paul said in the first chapter of first Corinthians, for Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel. But the thing that I wanted to get over to you is the fact here are the Corinthians divided old men, one group said, 'I'm of Paul,' another, 'I'm of Apollos,' another, 'I'm of Cephas.' He said is Christ divided? Whhhyyy he says, was Paul


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER.) crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? Read.


READER: I thank God


PASTOR HOGAN: I thank God


READER: that I baptized none of you.


PASTOR HOGAN: I baptized nobody


READER: I thank God that I baptized none of you.


PASTOR HOGAN: I thank God that I didn't do any baptizing.


READER: I thank God that I baptized none of you.


PASTOR HOGAN: That.., see Paul was glad he didn't baptize any of those people that were divided old men, 'now if I'd had baptized, you'd been a sinner enough to say it that I baptized in my own name. I'm glad I didn't baptize; however I did baptize some of you, I baptized Crispus and Gaius and the household of Stephanas; I don't know whether I baptized any other. I'm so glad I didn't, anyone big enough to be baptized over me and I'm glad I had nothing to do with your baptism.' He didn't say I didn't baptize anybody. 'But I thank God I baptized none of you.'


AUDIENCE: Right, Right.


PASTOR HOGAN: That's in the Bible. Read a little farther.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER) Lest any man should say that I had baptized in my own name.


PASTOR HOGAN: Read.


READER: And I also baptized the household of Stephanas,


PASTOR HOGAN: Baptized also the household of Stephan


READER: Besides I know not whither I baptized any other


PASTOR HOGAN: Besides know not I baptized any other. Read on.


READER: For Christ sent me not to baptize


PASTOR HOGAN: For Christ sent me not to baptize,


READER: but to preach the gospel


PASTOR HOGAN: But to preach the gospel. Hold it there, hold that there. Christ sent me not to, do you mean to tell me that Paul went beyond the authority of Christ. He baptized Crispus and Gaius. He baptized the household of Stephanas. And the 8th cha.., 18th chapter of the Book of Acts the 18th verse 4 , he's mentioning the Corinthians, heard and believed and were baptized. Now do you mean to tell me Paul went by the... was beyond the authority of the Lord? Certainly not. Surely a man with a PhD degree knows that this is a litrical, an litrical expression


(BELL RINGS)


Oh, omits words that are necessary ___


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS).


Alright, it's out. Just like Jesus said in John 12 and 42, he that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me.5 Now do you mean to tell me, believed on Him that didn't believe on Him at the same time? No, he who believeth on Me, believeth not on me, only.., but on Him that sent me also. The Lord sent me not to preach the Gospel only.., ah to baptize, but to preach the gospel also. It's a literal expression or you make Paul a transgressor. ______________________ 4 This verse says: And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea; for he had a vow. 5 John 12:44. Alright, oh my, my, my, my, my. I forget that it's 30 minutes, that 30 minutes's about gone. Just a few rebuttal arguments. He made so many blunders here that I hardly know which one to get him under first.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


I don't know. Alright. For the rebuttal argument. Why he came on to talking about, if you please, Colossians 2 and 14, beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy or vain deceit after the rudiments of the world, after tradition of men and not after Christ. That's true. You'll have to watch him because Christ taught baptism. Christ commanded baptism. And then you remember he went to the third chapter of the Book of John and was there to discuss Nicodemus, being a ruler of the Jews, and that.., what have it; but remember Christ told Nicodemus, except a man, that's any man, is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God, being born into delivery or coming forth, you cannot be born of it without being first conceived therein, and so he's born of water according to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Christ born.., rather born of water and of the Spirit was ordered by Christ before He died but it did not come of force until after He died. Hebrews 9 and 15 through 18, certainly a will is the thing stipulated and the things stipulated therein must be made while the testator liveth, and it comes of force after he dea.., after he dies, so where Christ, it came of force after He died. And Christ Himself said, Heaven and earth shall pass away but My words will not pass away. I challenge him, even though Christ was under the law to point out the things that Christ said that passed away. Christ pointed out while under the law that it is said of them of old, of old, thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate your enemy, but I say... And you will find that in that fifth chapter. It is said of them of old, an eye for eye and tooth for tooth, but I say, showing that He, ladies and gentlemen, are His orders are superior to the law of Moses and what Christ said stood. If you doubt it, if you have proof that it didn't. What are the proofs? That what Christ said has never passed away. And what He commanded in the third chapter of John, that came of force after Christ died. So, so many things that I won't have the time to get to. I would like to call attention so many things that is brethren..., it is, that it is by faith, needing a saviour. James 2 says, the 17th verse, even so faith, if it has no works, it is dead, being alone. The 24th verse, you see then, how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. This man's saying it's by faith. Sure, we're saved by faith, but that faith has to exercise itself in obeying God. Galatians 3 and 26 says, while we're all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. � · Page 172 · � That faith was leading to obey the Gospel of the Son of God. Has he obeyed Christ? He'll submit to baptism or in the Kingdom he'll never go. I would like to enlarge on that, but as you know, time is about up. He said God spoke from Sinai on the sixth day, on the sixth and seventh day of June. We are, we're not talking about when God spoke to Moses. We are not discussing God speaking on Sinai. We are speak, we're discussing water baptism by the authority of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. Water baptism of a penitent believer in water. That's what we are discussing. Alright. And then he said, 'um huh, one more point I wanted to get,' that he brought out ___ ___ ___ ___. I wanted to get to it. Ah, he said a point.


(BELL RINGS TWICE)


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)


DECEMBER 9,1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST FIRST NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL


DR. KINLEY: Now I'd just like to say in my rebuttal remarks that Doctor Hogan didn't understand nothing I said when I was on this floor.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


He heard what I said but he didn't understand none of it. Now let me show you. When John was baptizing he was preparing the way of the Lord. I didn't have time to bring out everything that I'd like to say. And I'm sure he didn't. That makes us even there. But I am telling you that when John was baptizing, he was baptizing them in water into Jesus Christ's death that they might be in the likeness of His resurrection. That's the sixth chapter of Romans and read right straight on down, and ignore the way some starts with chapters and the verse coming into the sixth verse, and you'll find out that it's not only that, it runs clear on back to Adam, and all down through the dispensations and ages. You understand? You all said in the, in the, in the sixth chapter, said, what shall we say then. 'We who? Who are you talking about?' We the Jew. Don't you know that many as of us are baptized into Jesus Christ was baptized into His death? Is that right? Now Romans, see, are Gentiles. Now if you read right down to the 11th verse, same chapter, 11th verse of the, of the sixth chapter of Romans. Paul said, like wise. Maybe you better read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves


DR. KINLEY: No, go and get baptized,


READER: To be dead indeed unto sin


DR. KINLEY: That's right. To be dead indeed unto him.


READER: But alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord


DR. KINLEY: But alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now here's something else I wanna call your attention to. That we.., I said before and I'm repeating it again. I said, in Adam all died. And I said that Christ was the second Adam. When Adam died out there in the Garden or when he sinned out there, death was pronounced upon all men. Now you can't fix that. Everything died in him; when Christ was nailed to the cross out there, everything dead. When Christ raised from the dead everything raised from the dead that believed on Him. Now we talked about baptism, the household of Gaius and Stephanas. Is that right? Is that right? Now I want you to know that they were Jews. No record, no where none of the people Paul baptized was Gentiles. None of 'em. Then just like he wrote the letter to Corinth, he told 'em that Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel, Preach it how? In the name, not in the water. Baptize in the name, not in water. And to baptize in the name don't mean in the water. And I tried to tell you a while ago if that's what Christ meant, him being God incarnate, He ought to at least have sense enough to say what He means. Then I said something else that apparently he didn't understand, he went back and quoted the fifth chapter of Ephesians. He said I said that that was under the Dispensation of the Law. I did not say that. You got the recording machines there. You play 'em back over again. I said that Jesus Christ washed the disciples feet under the law.


Jesus Christ was the Word of God fulfilling the law. Therefore He had to wash the disciples feet under the Dispensation of the Law. And when He was washing Peter's feet and them, Peter said, 'you shall never wash my feet.' Said, 'if I don't wash 'em, you'll have no part with Me.' Is that right? And I'm telling you that was the washing of the water by the Word that Paul is talking about in the fifth chapter of Ephesians. You understand? Now there's the two different dispensations. Now in the Dispensation of Grace, which dispensation now that we're living in, it's preaching Christ, preaching the Word. You understand? Doing N 0 T H I N G, nothing literal, it's by the hearing of faith. Now we went down to Cornelius house, and argued that one out too, didn't we? See. Now also going back to Ephesians five... or four, five. One Lord, one faith, and one baptism. Right. Now he says it's water. I say no. And I'd like for you to know this, the Ephesians are Gentiles, and to them there wasn't but one baptism. No water. Water baptism is one baptism, Holy Ghost baptism is another baptism. Gentile never was baptized in water. So to them there wasn't but one Lord, one faith, and just as.., one baptism of the Holy Ghost.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


That's right. Now unto them, the Gentile. Now let's get the Jews. I want you to get to the sixth chapter of Hebrews, and the first verse. Read on down. Now listen while you're reading, please recognize the fact that Hebrews are Jews. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ


DR. KINLEY: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Let us go on unto perfection


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Just a moment now that's new subject matte r.


DR. KINLEY: Now listen I'm talking about water baptism.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: But use the scripture you presented, Brother Hogan can't answer.


DR. KINLEY: Well, were we discussing water baptism?


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: But that scripture hasn't been introduced in this debate now. If so, play your recording back, and you'll see.


PASTOR HOGAN: That's the doctrine of, of, of, of baptism, repentance from dead works. Now if we're gonna discuss dead works I'd be glad to take you on on it, but for you going to laying up something that's not what.., get an answer, why that's what you ___. I can give another to work on and I'll bring in something new.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Tomorrow night now you'll get the privilege if you wanna bring it, bring that ___.


DR. KINLEY: Oh, you don't want me to refer to... you want me to have him read the scriptures, is that it? I can make any remark I want to make, is that it?


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Now you don't ___ ___ ___.


DR. KINLEY: You mean to tell me now that I have been up here as long as... (DOCTOR KINLEY IS INTERRUPTED PERHAPS BY THE MODERATOR. THERE ARE SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME. IT IS DIFFICULT TO DISTINGUISH WHO IS SAYING WHAT.)


MAN: Quiet. Take him right out.


SOMEONE ELSE: ___ It's about up.


BURBANK MITCHELL: ___ time has been stopped.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: That's what I'm saying, I'm not saying time is up, that's all the time I have.


PASTOR HOGAN: Let him ramble, when he's bringing in new matter that I can't answer.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Brother Hogan, sir. If you made the proposition pertaining to that he's talking about is new. Then he shouldn't be allowed to bring it in.


PASTOR HOGAN: Okay. The moderator ___.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: ___ ___ moderate this debate. But I think if you wanna present that scripture, it's alright, do it tomorrow night, then Brother Hogan will have a chance to answer your... But as of now that scripture has not been introduced tonight. That's a new scripture. And you shouldn't present it unless he has a chance to answer it. Now, that's what's stated in the beginning, and that's your opinion. So lose. Hebrews six has not been introduced here tonight, has it?


DR. KINLEY: No, that's correct.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Alright then.


DR. KINLEY: I ___. CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Well, don't introduce...


DR. KINLEY: Wait just, now just a minute though, but water baptism is what we are discussing. You understand? Now that's what we're discussing. We did introduce that and made comment on it.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Do it...


DR. KINLEY: And listen. Here's something else. Now he referred to a whole lotta scriptures that I never made no references to.


SEVERAL PEOPLE: You sure had the opportunity.


(AUDIENCE CLAPS)


DR. KINLEY: Sure, I had an opportunity.


(SOMEONE IS LAUGHING)


SOMEONE: You'll be.., just a moment, you got an opportunity to answer for those... Is he coming up behind you now to answer what you're gonna say?


DR. KINLEY: No. CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: Of course not. Well, that's why you shouldn't present this until letting him present new material and he doesn't have a chance to rebuttal. And that's according to the rules of debate. If you, if you know about debating, then you should know that sir.


PASTOR HOGAN: You can answer anything I said now.


SOMEONE: You can ask anything he says right now.


FRED ALLEN: ___ ___ the same way.


DR. KINLEY: Take it the same way?


FRED ALLEN: You check him out tomorrow night.


SOMEONE: That's the way it goes.


DR. KINLEY: Okay, we'll do that.


(THE TAPE STOPS AND BEGINS WITH THE FOLLOWING)


DR. KINLEY: Don't know what dispensation they belong to. See. He wants you to spell N A M E, name, with W A T E R. Baptizing in the name, by the authority of these by putting somebody in water. And I'm telling you water is out, it's out for the Jew and it's also out for the Gentile. In this dispensation it's preaching the Gospel, preaching that Christ was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. Now if we have faith and confidence in Him as being the regenerator, as Adam was the degenerator. Have faith then in His death, His burial, His baptism, His circumcision, His everything, then you can be saved. Now you can get in all the water you want to, and I have baptized a whole lotta people, and said the ceremonies over 'em. I have did that. Said this, 'in obedience to the command of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I baptize this our beloved brother in the name of, of the Father, God, and in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ, and in the name of the Holy Ghost.' Now I didn't know what that was, when I was doing it. And down in the water I put him. Now I say baptize in the name, didn't say in the water. See, the remission of sins is to be preached in the name, to baptize in the name, don't mean putting nobody in the water. Now that's my argument. And listen, let me tell you this: all carnal ord... and water baptism, literal water baptism is a carnal ordinance. I wonder if they'd mind if I just read this down in the second chapter of Colossians where he was talking about, about them ordinances. Second chapter. Read it please.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Beware lest any man spoil you


DR. KINLEY: No, I want down there were Paul talks about those bodies, them ordinances, all of them...


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Wherefore if you be dead with Christ


DR. KINLEY: Now wherefore if you... Now these are Gentiles he's talking to. Wherefore if you be dead with Christ.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: From the rudiments of the world


DR. KINLEY: From the rudiments. Do you know what rudiments are? Of the world. See. If ye be dead, then read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Why as though living in the world


DR. KINLEY: Why? You answer the question. Why as though living in the world


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Are you subject to ordinances


DR. KINLEY: Are you subject to ordinances? Any of 'em? Pick out any of 'em you want to. Water, just anything you want to. Why are you subject to it? Now do you see that? What you are supposed to do and what they were supposed to do was to preach the Word. Paul told Timothy to preach the Word. Preach Christ, Preach Christ and what? That He is your circumcision. He is your everything. Don't make no difference what it is. He's all of that. And if you believe, and that's, then that's what it is. Then I want to say this. This is in another reference, see but it has to do with the same thing. That's Galatians, the third chapter of Galatians. See, Cornelius and them was the first Gentiles to come in. And God, 1, I'll put the question like this to call your attention, why did God baptize them with the Holy Ghost before they got in the water? And I told you that He.., God was bringing 'em in according to the way He made the promise to Abraham. That was why. Understand? And to just bring the story right down through, anybody can see that wants to. In the fifth chapter of Romans they just baptized all, everybody, Jews and Gentiles into Christ's death, through the baptism, through the circumcision, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You understand? Now listen, if water, physical, literal water and the physical, literal blood of bulls, goats and heifers under the Dispensation of the Law, if that didn't purify a person and his conscience, physical water ain't gonna do it now. You see that? Now in Galatians Paul says this. This only would I learn of you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith. Now you can teach him a lesson. When Peter, talking to Galatians, Galatians are Gentiles. You understand? See that now? If Galatians are Gentiles and Paul's asking them how did you get in, did you receive it by works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Peter went down to Cornelius house he spake and while he was yet speaking they received the Holy Ghost without any water baptism. Now to baptize a man after he received the Holy Ghost is contrary to all scripture. Why? Because you're, you're crucifying and burying a man that's already alive.


(SOMEONE LAUGHS)


And on the Day of Pentecost, them that received the Holy Ghost, they wasn't supposed to be baptized any more. Why? Cause they'd already been baptized in John's baptism. Then I want to tell you this too. You can't baptize nobody into His death as of now. Why? Because he's risen from the dead. SOMEONE: I hear you___.


DR. KINLEY: It's by faith in His death, and in His burial, and in His resurrection. See. That's how it is. Now all of the epistles is just like that. I did bring up the 15th chapter of Saint John. Jesus said, every branch, I'm the true vine, My Father is the husbandman, see, every branch that didn't bear fruit in Him.., he said, He took it away. Is that right? Now listen, get the jest of what I'm saying. When them Jews were broken off, branches now not roots. Now it was introduced but I never commended on it. See. The 1 lth chapter of Romans and the 17th verse. I did mention, I never commented on it. The Apostle Paul said this that Gentiles was grafted in among the branches, not buried down there in the roots as John baptized. Now following that point around, twisting hisself up in all of these epistles. Grafted in by faith. Abraham believed on God, and God promised to bless the Gentiles by faith. The Jews, they did under the Dispensation of the Law and the dispensation of the law, all them physical things was types and shadows of what was to come in this present dispensation. Do you understand? The law was a schoolmaster to bring us up to Christ. Now we're up to Him, and He's being preached that in His name, you understand, that all, both Jews and Gentiles, be saved by faith through grace. Why he says it is the free gift of God, not merited or earned. You see. Yes I know that those things I've been talking about... And listen for the biggest part all Christendoom makes just that same error, mistake. Roman Catholics and what have you. Now it is not the Levite. This is the Bible. I said this was 33 years.., and is was not the first debate I have ever had on 'em too. Been debating it for 33 years. And every last one of 'em.., I had five ministers at a time. Won them debates. What's the trouble? Don't know what you're reading when you're reading it. My Bible reads just like his...


(AUDIENCE RESPONSES IN A LOUD UNDERTOW)


There ain't know difference in it. This is the Dispensation of Grace. The unmerited, not earned, and you can't baptize nobody into His death now, cause He's not dead. That is why John had to baptize 'em before He died. The Gentiles by faith in Jesus Christ, seven years after Pentecost or in AD 40. And Peter was the first one to preach to 'em, Cornelius's household. And they got the Holy Ghost without it. Now somebody.., then he turned around and told faith without works is dead. Said James said that. Faith without the works of the law. See, now maybe he's.., doesn't think I know what I'm talking about there. I'm talking about water baptism. Now, faith without works is dead. Jesus said this to the Jews under the Dispensation of the Law, said this is the work: that you believe on Him that send Me. Now that's not dead. See. And by the works of the law, and all them carnal ordinances was under the law, by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His, in His sight. I wish you'd ring that bell.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


See I'm just loafing around with you now.


(AUDIENCE CONTINUES TO LAUGH)


See what I mean. Because what I have said to you is the way the Bible reads, and all that stuff that Brother Hogan told you about messing up and mixing up between them dispensations, and talking about said about his feet. I said Jesus washed feet under the Dispensation of the Law. And I spoke about the works of righteousness... What Paul is talking Christ washed feet under the Dispensation of the Law, and it come in effect under this Dispensation- washing of regeneration. Now there's got to be a generation, that means coming in; then there's a degeneration, that means going out. And the regeneration means coming back. Do you see what I'm talking about. When God created Adam, he was generated. When Adam sinned, right back where he went fr.., come from; degeneration, see. Now when Christ died, He went to heaven or to the grave. Do you understand? Where Adam was appointed to go. Do you understand? To redeem them. Is that right? Then when Christ raised from the dead, so then Matthew 27:52, many of the saints that slept in the dust of the Earth rose and went on into Jerusalem. See, now, 1, 1, I noticed before when Doctor Hogan was down there preaching down at the tent. And everybody that was with me noticed it and knew he didn't know what he was talking about in the dispensation and the ages, understood that he didn't. Said a whole lotta things, same as he did here tonight. See, I told you to begin with I don't have no dispute with what's in the Bible. And yet I know there's interpolations and mistranslation in it.


(AUDIENCE RESPONSES UM, UM)


Do you see what I mean? I know that they are in there. And let me tell you something else. If I thought that I was wrong about it, it would... listen at me now, it would be my prayer, sincere, earnest prayer to lose this debate. I'd wanna lose it. Do you understand? If I was wrong, cause nobody profits by my lie, as Paul said. Do you understand? And I am telling you, there's no point, I'm ain't interested in winning no debate nohow. What I'm interested in doing is preaching the gospel. Don't care a thing about no debate. And if anything else I'm wrong about I hope, trust, and pray, and ask you to pray for me. That oughta be good enough.


SOMEONE: Alright. Amen.


DR. KINLEY: That God correct me and chastise me. You see. And I think that that should be my opponent's attitude and disposition about it. And I definitely say you cannot find water baptism... There's a whole lotta other things I could say. I'll just put it like this: you can't find no carnal ordinance in this dispensation. None. Now he just read to you, if you be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why as though living in the world are you yet subject to ordinances? Didn't point out no specific one either.


(Bell Rings)


Thank You


SOMEONE: You got five minutes.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


DR. KINLEY: I'm just ___ ___. There is one that cometh after Me that is mightier than I, that, in whose shoes I'm not worthy to bear.., He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. We ain't got to the fire yet. And I hope you never get to it like that, see, but we have got to the Holy Ghost. And it is Christ, he's the one that baptized with the Holy Ghost, not me, not Peter, but I do wish you'd just wake up for a change and see that it was the Holy Ghost that was speaking through Peter when they were being baptized in the name. They believed and received the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38. Repent everyone of you and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I read all of them things. I know almost the Bible by heart. What Peter was preaching there to them people, preaching Christ or the Holy Ghost was speaking through him. Said, repent everyone of you and be baptized in the name. Now they are refusing to accept the name of Jesus Christ, you see, refused to. And Peter was baptizing in the name. Every creature. When they saw that they was wrong and that they had crucified the Prince of Glory, they were pricked in their hearts and they heard them words. See. Then what Peter said to them about it came of effect that is to say it took effect; that is to say then they were baptized in the name. And then they did receive the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost that same day. God promised to multiply the seed of Abraham as the sands of the sea and as the stars of heaven; that's what God promised to do. And for eleven men to run around here and baptize all them folks in literal water, don't even make sense. And Paul was made a minister of the Gentiles. Gentiles mean the rest of the world, except the Jew. I know he preached to the Jews.


(BELL RINGS)


Just that one man by himself he could have baptized all them folks out there, not in no literal water. Thank you very much.


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: I want to say that I'm very sorry that we had to interrupt the Doctor tonight but... some what disappointed, I know that the man was his supposed standing should know better than to introduce new matter, and is supposed to speak of course to continue to do so... we haven't been to correct him on it. I hope that the next discussion that will be again with this group, that they won't conduct themselves like that. Tomorrow night we are supposed to have another discussion over at the other place. The Park Manor is that right?


SOMEONE: That's right.


SOMEONE: New Park Manor


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: New Park Manor?


SOMEONE: 706 Western, South Western


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: 706


SOMEONE: 607 South Western CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: 607 South Western


SOMEONE: South Western Avenue?


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: South Western Avenue, 607 South Western Avenue. 607 South Western Avenue, room 4.


DECEMBER 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST SECOND NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH


TAPE 2, SIDE B:


CHURCH OF CHRIST MODERATOR, BROTHER PERKINS: ___ ___ we have some members, some members of the audience from last evening, and the conduct ___ characteristic of the ___ ___ ___ ___ this evening. I feel that we can consider ourselves blessed with it. I'm sure it will be the same. And we'll ___ that this is a religious discussion and it ___ be administered to ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ men. They are able men ___ ___. I don't want to take too much of your time now, just like to ___ ___ ___ moderator, Doctor Kinley will be the next the next speaker.


SECOND NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S SPEECH


DR. KINLEY: First of all I would like to say that I am indeed happy and glad to be here with you, along the lines described in our discussion by the moderator. That is to say that I do not believe that in this present Dispensation of Grace, I would like to date that too, so that you'll know and think I did, I'm talking about from the Day of Pentecost, the second chapter of Acts of Apostles. From that day.., now if I would go down into sacred time and then translate it over into our time according to the Gregorian calendar, it would be the sixth day of June AD 33 at about nine o'clock in the morning. Now I said that to pinpoint, so that you would know what I meant when I said in this present Dispensation of Grace. Now this is a school, a school of learning, not a church. That would almost force me into defining what a school and what the Church is, said that every interval, I have to stop and define these words. Now the word Church as it is used in your Bible, as said to be expressed by the Apostle Paul, which if you would say church to him, he wouldn't even know what you was talking about, but the word church means congregation or assembly. That is the correct meaning of it. A school means a place where you go to, to learn or to get some understanding. That too is people congregated together to learn.


So then the difference between one and the other is but a very little difference. Now that draws me out on saying this, in the 17th chapter of Acts of Apostle, God said through the Apostle Paul, I hope I'm understood too, that God dwells not in temples made by hands, but He dwells in our hearts by faith; and you are the temple of God and you were not made by hands. I had to go through all that in order to get around on the subject. And the reason for that is I want you to know that in taking it in modern language and understanding, as we understand it, that I too belong to the Church of Christ; and I am not referring to this building in or on Figueroa or any other street, because as I understand it to be, it is a spiritual body, not a physical. And that it is by one Spirit, as expressed by the Apostle Paul in the 12th chapter of first Corinthians and about the 13th verse. It is by one Spirit that you are baptized into the one body or baptized into Christ. By one Spirit whether you be Jews or Gentiles, it makes no difference. I would like for that to be understood. Now the reason why I'm so particular about those remarks is because last night many things I said, which was a repetition of what was in the Book, the Bible I'm talking about, was misconstrued, misunderstood, misrepresented, misinterpreted.


My expressions that come out of the Book, which was nothing but repeating what was in the Book, even down my intellectual capacity which was not involved in our discussion. That's my diction and my ability to speak profoundly and academic, which I'd like for you to know that I have taught men with the degrees of Doctor of Divinity, Doctor of Philosophy, PhDs. And PhD don't mean post hole diggers either,


(AUDIENCE RESPONDS)


as my worthy opponent said last night. I didn't define it to mean no such... Then let us talk about the DD, which is said to be on that book that I written. Since we got a PhD degree, since we have a Doctor of Divinity degree, let's let God define this one this time, them DDs, the 56th chapter of Isaiah and the ninth and 10th verse, oh He'll define it. Read.


READER: All ye beasts of the field


DR. KINLEY: All ye beasts of the field


READER: Come to devour


DR. KINLEY: Come to devour


READER: Yea, all ye beasts in the forest


DR. KINLEY: Read.


DR. KINLEY: His watchmen are blind


READER: They are all ignorant


DR. KINLEY: They are all ignorant


READER: They are all dumb dogs


DR. KINLEY: That's the DD. Dumb dogs. Now God defined it, not me. Read on.


READER: They cannot bark


DR. KINLEY: They can't bark or they can't preach. Read.


READER: Sleeping


DR. KINLEY: Sleeping, read on.


READER: Lying down


DR. KINLEY: Lying down


READER: Loving to slumber


DR. KINLEY: Loving to slumber


READER: Yea, they are greedy dogs


DR. KINLEY: Yea, they are greedy dogs


READER: Which can never have enough


DR. KINLEY: Which can never have enough


READER: And they are shepherds


DR. KINLEY: They are shepherds


READER: That cannot understand


DR. KINLEY: That cannot understand


READER: They all look to their own way


DR. KINLEY: They all look to God's way


READER: Their own way


DR. KINLEY: Please correct me. Their own way. Read please.


READER: Every one for his gain


DR. KINLEY: Every one for his gain


READER: From his quarter


DR. KINLEY: From his quarter. I am the Dean here, I am not looking for no gain. I never have been paid one cent at no time. And I have been preaching for 33 years this same thing I'm, we're discussing tonight. But I would like for you to know this: I could have been in the year of 1935 a millionaire and I refused. And since I been in California, come here in 1958 in August, I was called over here in Hollywood and some of my companions who are now seated in this audience, in this audience were present with me and the multimillionaires that backed up Billy Graham offered to back me up with their money, just like they did Billy Graham. I refused it. And as I stand here before you now, I do not have a penny; in the bank, in my pockets, at home, if you wanna call it that. 'Well, what are you talking about? I thought you were supposed to be discussing water baptism in the dispensations?' Get it? 'You are off of the subject.' Well if I'm off of the subject, as I just expressed, post hole diggers was off of the subject last night. Then I wanted to make a reference last night to the sixth chapter of Hebrews and I was asked not to introduce it because it was off of the subject. Now with me I thought that was stupid last night and I still think it's stupid tonight for you to say that it was off of the subject because it had to do with water baptism and that was the subject, not the epistle. And what he was talking about in that epistle is on the subject, so since I didn't have an opportunity to express it last night I'm going to hurry from here on. I'm going to express it tonight. And then I'm going back and read out of the Bible about this water ba.., I mean physical, literal, natural water baptism in this present dispensation, the Dispensation of Grace. I said then and I say now that it is not essential. And I further made the statement last night, and I do demand tonight that anybody, not only in this audience, anybody in the world, I've said it a multiplicity of times. Take your Bible and show me, don't want but just one person that is a Gentile that the apostles, any one of 'em, baptized in physical, literal water in this present dispensation of time. Show it to me in the Book. Now we went back and quoted Matthew 28:19, where Jesus said after He raised from the dead, or after His resurrection, go ye therefore into all the world baptizing every creature, listen, every creature said he because it means Jews and Gentiles, that is if you classify a Gentile as a creature, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and lo I am with you alway even until the end of the world. Should have been translated age, the word world. There is something else I want you to notice about that same thing that apparently was overlooked. He told the apostles; you go, you go and baptize in the name. Now down at Cornelius' house in the 10th chapter of Acts of Apostles when God poured out the Holy Ghost before those people got in the water, and I mean they're Gentiles and the first of the Gentiles, it is said there in the 10th chapter and last verse that Peter said or that Peter commanded or demanded them to be baptized in water. Now listen Christ did not send them to appoint somebody else to do the job of baptizing in water, He sent them to do it, not to appoint somebody else to do it. Now if you wanna get all polytechnical, careful and particular, if that's what you want to do, which I admire, I like that, then in the first chapter of Acts of the Apostles, Luke said that Jesus said, John truly baptized with water, I said that was under the Dispensation of the Law. And Jesus said after He resurrected, He talked to those apostles just before He ascended, said, John truly baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. We have found out by careful research in the scriptures that it was ten days after His ascension that the Holy Ghost was poured out. And Cornelius and his household or no Gentiles prior to that had been baptized in water. Now that makes me almost have to step backwards and get that Ethiopian eunuch and I said that he was a Jew from Ethiopia. And the, theologians question whether he was or not a Jew from Ethiopia. Then in the 15th chapter of the Acts of Apostles, Peter said, suppose you read it, that the Gentiles first heard the Word of the Lord at his mouth. Read it please.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them


DR. KINLEY: That's right.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Men and brethren


DR. KINLEY: Men and Brethren


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: You know how that a good while ago


DR. KINLEY: Uh hum.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: God made choice among us


DR. KINLEY: Uh hum.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: That the Gentiles by my mouth


DR. KINLEY: Uh hum


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Should hear the word of the gospel, and believe


DR. KINLEY: That's correct.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness


DR. KINLEY: Uh hum


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Giving them the Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us


DR. KINLEY: As He did unto us


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And put no difference


DR. KINLEY: And put no difference


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Between us and them


DR. KINLEY: Between them


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Purifying their hearts by faith


DR. KINLEY: Purifying their hearts by faith. One other cardinal point I want noticed that all of the apostles and elders were gathered together in that congregation or assembly there in Acts of Apostles where he is reading. And I would like for you to realize this too that the Holy Ghost was present. Please read that. In the 15th chapter there.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: (DOCTOR HARRIS PAUSES) Here, and God. No, that's not it.


SOMEONE: 28.


DR. KINLEY: 28th verse.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: 28


DR. KINLEY: Now see, we got to be so particular about this chapter and verse business. Alright read on.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost


DR. KINLEY: For it seemed good


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And to us


DR. KINLEY: To the Holy Ghost and to us


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: To lay upon them


DR. KINLEY: To lay upon them, the Gentiles


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: No greater burden than these necessary things


DR. KINLEY: No greater burden than these necessary things; right in that, what are them necessary things. I want it read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: That you abstain from meats


DR. KINLEY: That you abstain from meats


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Offered to idols


DR. KINLEY: Offered to idols


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And from blood


DR. KINLEY: And from blood


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And from things strangled


DR. KINLEY: And from things strangled


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And from fornication


DR. KINLEY: And from fornication


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: From which if you keep yourselves


DR. KINLEY: Uh hum


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: You shall do well


DR. KINLEY: You shall do well. Well now what did I have that read for? All of 'em was there and they never said a thing about 'em being baptized in water. All of the elders was there. I'd like to point out something else that he just read, that we speak quite frequently about. Paul said, all things was lawful unto him, but all things are not expedient. Paul taught that circumcision.., and that's what that audience or congregation was together up there for to discuss it because the carnal minded Jews was contending that the Gentiles should be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. So, therefore, the Apostles and the brethren come together for to discuss that matter. Is that right? And you just heard what the man read out of the Book. Now I'm telling you Paul shaved his head, the vow of the Nazarite, to go to Jerusalem to be there on the Day of Pentecost. I'm not talking about Acts 2:4 there, that day, I mean in the years after. I say he circumcised Timothy and then taught that circumcision nor uncircumcision availeth nothing. But he did, but he didn't teach that it availed anything. That is not all he did. He ate meat that was sacrificed to idols and you just heard it read there, to satisfy his hunger and his appetite with no conscience whatsoever or with no respect to the idols. He ate it, the sacrifice, things, meat that was sacrificed to idols to satisfy his hunger. And he said if eating meat offend my brother I'll eat no more meat while the world stands. Now somebody comes along with an erroneous concept that Paul meant that he wouldn't eat any flesh of an animal or anything like that and he was a vegetarian, that's what he meant. I said, no. And Paul did eat meat after that. And also said, anything that's sold in the shambles, eat and don't ask no questions for conscience sake, eat anything that's set before you. Now look at the things that we have got there, but he did not teach in the form of a doctrine. Now I brought all of that in to show you that all of those things were literal, they were physical-, in order to get down to this when Paul preached everywhere to the Jews and to the Gentiles, he preached in the name of Jesus Christ. And when he was speaking and preaching in the name, I'm telling you that both Jews and Gentiles were being baptized in the name, please not in the water. And you cannot read in Matthew 28:19 or in Mark the 16th chapter or in Luke where Jesus said anything to them about baptizing them in water after He risen from the dead. I said last night that the reason for


(PAUSE IN THE TAPE)


DR. KINLEY: as Paul told the Corinthians, Ephesians, all of the Gentiles and the Jews in preaching the name, said he was baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. That I would like for you to know that that is my understanding of what Jesus meant when He said: go and baptize them in the name and He said nothing about the water in this present dispensation. In the fifth chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans, he said there in that fifth chapter, went clear back to Adam and then come down to Moses in that fifth chapter, talking about Adam and the Jews and the baptism of repentance. And then when we got in the sixth chapter, he said, what shall we say then? What shall we who? The Jews, because the Holy Spirit was given unto them first and they went to the Gentiles themselves, being sent of God, of course. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer there in? Know ye not, or don't you know, that as many of us, us who? The Jews that were baptized into Jesus Christ was baptized into His death. Therefore, we should be, I'm just giving it to you in a way you can understand, we should be like Him in His resurrection. Now the 11th verse, where he's making his appeal to the Romans, who are Gentiles, in the 11th verse, please read it.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Likewise


DR. KINLEY: Likewise, now just like that. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Reckon ye also


DR. KINLEY: Now don't, No, sir, don't start out, ___ do that, just likewise reckon yourselves.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: To be dead indeed unto sin


DR. KINLEY: To be dead indeed unto sin.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: But alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord


DR. KINLEY: But alive through Jesus Christ- Now that wasn't understood last night. Here I come again in the 11th chapter of Hebrews Paul's talking about.., now I'm after that likewise reckon yourselves. No, don't do it but reckon yourselves. Paul said Abraham offered up Isaac his only son. He didn't say that he was going to do it, he didn't say that, said he offered him up. You know as well as I do when we go back into Genesis and Abraham threw back his arm to put Isaac to death, the angel that stayed his hand. And he got that ram there in the thicket and offered him up. But the thing I'm pointing out to you is this: that Abraham in his mind put Isaac to death. In his mind, he's done counting or reckoning that God was able to raise him from the dead that his seed or posterity would continue on. It was a settled thing in Abraham's mind. And I'm telling you that you must do likewise in your mind as Abraham and as Paul is teaching. Now I know I don't have time to go into it. Just about bell time. But I thank God I will like to read it out of the Bible. I'm talking about the second chapter of Colossians beginning with the 13th verse where Paul said that we are circumcised by the circumcision of Christ; and He was circumcised eight days after He was born in the flesh. One - you are buried, Gentiles now, with Him by baptism. Now did you notice the circumcision was made without hands. Now do you mean to tell me that you don't have to take your hand and through 'em on somebody to get them in the water?


FRED ALLEN: You have five minutes.


DR. KINLEY: I have five minutes. Thanks I'm glad for that five minutes. I'll make the best of it. Do you have it?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Yes I do.


DR. KINLEY: Read it please.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: In whom also you are circumcised


DR. KINLEY: Uh hum


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: with the circumcision made


DR. KINLEY: With the circumcision


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Made without hands


DR. KINLEY: Made without hands


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: In putting off the body


DR. KINLEY: In putting off


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: The body of the sins of the flesh


DR. KINLEY: In putting off the sins of the fl.., body of the flesh. Read on.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: By the circumcision of Christ


DR. KINLEY: Now that's by circumcision of Christ. Now I'd just you to.., real short cut and say this: now when you get Christ, you got the whole thing, you're complete in Him. Colossians 2:9. Read on.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Buried with Him in baptism


DR. KINLEY: Buried with Him in baptism


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Wherein also ye


DR. KINLEY: Wherein the same thing, you are what?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Risen with him


DR. KINLEY: Risen with Him. How'd that happen?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Through the faith of the operation of God


DR. KINLEY: Through the faith and the operation of God. Nobody punched him in water and took him back out of there.


(Dr. KINLEY SLAMS SOMETHING)


Now do you see that? Now those are things I was talking about last night. Now skip on down in that same.., and repeat what they had last night.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Wherefore


DR. KINLEY: Wherefore


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: If you be dead with


DR. KINLEY: Listen, wherefore is a conjunction. It's an articulation meaning a conjunction: and, but, if, and for, wherefore and wherein, and what have you. See. It joins together two complete thoughts. This and is an articulation or a conjunction, it joins the two thoughts together. Wherefore. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: If ye be dead with Christ


DR. KINLEY: If ye be dead, listen these Colossians are Gentiles. If ye be dead with Christ. Read on.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: From the rudiment of the world


DR. KINLEY: From the rudiments of the world, do you know what rudiments are? If you don't you better get a dictionary or something and look 'em up. Said from the rudiments of the world. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Why?


DR. KINLEY: Answer. Why?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: As though living in the world


DR. KINLEY: As though living in the world


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Are ye subject to ordinances


DR. KINLEY: Are you subject to ordinances. Why are you subject to ordinances? I wish my worthy opponent would explain that. Why did Jesus and the Apostle Paul contend that they was nailed to the cross? Stop that. Now my worthy opponent, I don't have but a few minutes, he showed that this so called great commission, going out and baptizing somebody in water. That water is, just as he's talking about it, is just as literal as that that John the Baptist baptized I 'em in. But to baptize a man in real true water, he that believeth on me as the scriptures has said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, this spake He of the spirit, and John explained it himself, Jesus didn't, said, this spake He of the Holy Ghost for the Holy Ghost was not yet given when Jesus spoke those words. And as that man stood up there on the Day of Pentecost living water was flowing out of their hearts and out of their mouths. You understand. And from that day on, all of the apostles, regardless of which one of them was it, living water was flowing. Wasn't him back there or he'd had been flowing. I think my constituents here say that my time is expired. It is...


DECEMBER 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S SPEECH



PASTOR HOGAN: Fellow moderators, my worthy opponent, brother and sisters, ladies and gentlemen, and friends my name is RN Hogan and that's reflected ___ ___ ___. I am before you to deny something that has not been stated or proven, or tested in a way that's proven. My worthy opponent, even though he's very highly educated, didn't seem to recognize that in affirming a proposition, he's supposed to define, define it so clear that there'd be mis.., no misunderstanding about the proposition involved whatever. Course he didn't do that and he spend a lotta time talking about himself. 'I came to California and those that offered to support him, and all of that and about him being broke. Well he's got a lotta company. Paul said, we preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus the Lord. If he'd a spent that time that he's talking about himself and preaching himself in affirming the proposition he signed, then I'd have something to work off, but somehow he neglected to do that. He went to work to define the title DD. He gave God's definition of it and according to him and well in Isaiah, 56 and 10 and them dumb dogs. Well after all the doctor's the one wearing that title, not me.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


So you're a dumb dog. Well, wouldn't you... You messed yourself up, you're the DD. DD is behind your name on your book, not mine. That you would come up, come up here calling me doctor. I'm no doctor, just Brother Hogan, a commoner. So that DD, no, doctor of divinity, don't call me doctor. My opponent says that's dumb dog, and I, I don't claim such things. He carries it behind his name. Thank you for telling me what that meant behind your name.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


Henry Clifford Kinley, DD, dumb dog, PhD. Now that's what you told us. Now don't come up here criticizing me for what you do. Thank you. Now, I'm gonna have to start down and because there's so many things that he said that there's no need to trying to discuss those things because they were irrelevant to the proposition that he signed. So I'm not gonna spend a whole lotta time trying to expose the blunders he made even in those things. He said to me last night, 'don't mess things up.' Well now,


(PASTOR HOGAN LAUGHS)


well, just makes it that tonight. Alright. I think his last statement was respecting John 7 and 38. He called attention to John 7 and 38, he that believeth on him as the scriptures said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But, what the Lord said, and it seemed to be satisfaction to him, he simply said, these are the words that on that Day of Pentecost living water was flowing out of their hearts and minds. He said, it's flowing out of their hearts and minds. Doctor Kinley, I'd like you to read that when you come up here. God said, out of their bellies shall flow rivers of.., don't you know the difference between a, a man's belly and his heart and his mind? God said, belly. Read it brother.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE AT THE SAME TIME) He that believeth on me as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow



PASTOR HOGAN: out of his heart


READER: out of his belly


PASTOR HOGAN: out of his mind


READER: out of his belly


PASTOR HOGAN: You already, now God said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Getting up here, trying to do his.., God's word, God didn't.., that Matthew didn't seem to know what to say. My opponent is showing what should have been said. Now, wanna get to another thing. And here's one thing I wanna get.., I wanna rock on. He said, and went back to it tonight, that no one can baptize into Christ's death for Christ is not dead. He said it last night and then got it, how he got it last night, ___ ___ change. Of course he criticized our, our moderator, because we won't let him bring in a new order. It wasn't that. He didn't get up here and say that you are not to bring in something on the subject as you said here tonight. You said here night that he objected to you bringing in something that pertained to the subject. Well, that is not true. You were attempting to bring in something new, a new argument that I didn't have a chance to answer, that's why he stopped. But now, we gonna get some.., I'm gonna answer this. Alright. No man can baptize into Christ's death for Christ is not dead. And then he said that that was the reason for John the Baptist baptizing in water before His death. Well, if John baptized before His death, He wasn't buried when John's baptized Him. If you can't baptize in Christ's death or water into Christ's death because Christ is not dead, seeing John baptized before Christ's death, he wasn't baptizing into Christ's death because Christ wasn't dead when John was baptizing. And then he, he, he, he couldn't baptize into Christ's death after John's baptism because he said Christ was dead and Christ was not dead. Well, according to him, there's only one.., three days you could baptize into Christ's death and that is when Christ is in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, because that is the only time He was dead. Doctor Kinley laid ___ out there, it's not a matter of reflecting on your, on your scholarly ability, but you're reflecting on it. You're the one reflecting on your schol.., scholarly ability. Paul, Paul said in Romans 6, Know ye not that so many of us, included himself. Here in the Romans, so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death. And Doctor Kinley, John did not baptize Paul. Paul was baptized under the Dispensation of Grace. Paul was baptized after the Church of our Lord was established on the first Pentecost or after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And Paul said so many of us, so Paul was baptized into His death under the Dispensation of Grace. And he said.., Romans goes on further in this. Doesn't he realize that he is saying that no one can be baptized into Christ's death because Christ is not dead, neither was He dead, as we pointed out, when John was baptizing. But here's the point I want you to get. He said that this was under the Dispensation of the Law. He said it, I have it here, but I'm going to the sixth chapter of Romans to see if it was under the Dispensation of the Law.


[TAPE 3, SIDE A]


PASTOR HOGAN: Now he can see the first few verses and he just... See, the 11th verse of the sixth chapter of Romans, but it is plain he couldn't see the 14th verse? Now he said this was under the Dispensation of the Law. Well, let the Holy Spirit tell us when and where, under what dispensation it was. Read the 14th verse.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) For sin shall not have dominion over you


READER: for ye are not under the law


PASTOR HOGAN: for ye are not under the law


READER: but under grace.


REV. HOGAN: 'Oh no, look I'm... no, no, you are under the law.' Doctor Kinley said, this is not under grace, he said, it's under the law, Dispensation of the Law. But Paul said, you're not under the law but under grace. Oh, when you said this was under the law of... under the Dispensation of the Law, you missed it clear ___, Paul said this is the Dispensation of Grace. You're under grace. You missed that, you missed that doctor. You missed it. I call him doctor cause that's what he claims. I don't claim that. Alright. So out of the way goes that argument. If he goes back to that, if he goes back to it and says that this is under the Dispensation of the Law, then he and the Holy Spirit are into it, for the Holy Spirit said, you're not under the law but under grace. Now, that Bible plainly says you are not under the law but under grace, and you get up here and say that is under the Dispensation of the Law. You get up here and said, water wasn't under grace, Holy Spirit says it was. You said it wasn't, Holy Spirit says it, you were. You said it wasn't, Holy Spirit's saying it was. Get me Romans 3 and 3. The argument between Doctor Kinley and the Holy Spirit, and the argument's between Doctor Kinley and God. Well the ___ ___ ___, it should be said.., let the Holy Spirit say it. Read it.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid:


PASTOR HOGAN: God forbid.


READER: yea, let God be true,


PASTOR HOGAN: yea, let God be true,


READER: but every man a liar;


PASTOR HOGAN: Thank you. Number one, did he pull your seat out of here ___ ___ ___, face this audience. Read that again, scripture for me. Read that again.


READER: For what if some did not believe?


PASTOR HOGAN: What is some did not believe?


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE TOGETHER) Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?


READER: God forbid:


PASTOR HOGAN: God forbid.


READER: Yea, let God be true,


PASTOR HOGAN: Yea, let God be true


READER: but every man a liar; as it is written.


PASTOR HOGAN: Thank you very kindly. Thank you Brother Moore. See, I didn't repeat that. You can't get up here and say I called him a liar. I'm not doing that. I don't do that. I don't call people a liar and I don't do it. Now if he gets up here and say I did, you know better. Thank you very kindly. And he goes in a corner about what we're saying that and what was done last night. Seemed like he wasn't satisfied with what happened last night. And I could call attention to a lotta things he said last night. Why he even said that the twelve apostles couldn't have baptized that big number in one day. Now he said it. Listen, you wanna.., have a record, he said it. He said they couldn't have.., I have news for you Doctor Kinley. They could have, they could have done it in a little over half of that. Anyone can baptize one person in one minute. I'll.., if you don't believe it.., obey God, I'll baptize you in a minute.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


If one can do it, if one can do it, twelve can. So if any one of 'em can can baptize one person in one minute. Well, twelve can baptize twelve persons in one minute. At that rate, one per minute, twelve can baptize twelve hundred in a hundred minutes or in an hour and 40 minutes. At the same rate of one per minute, twelve can baptize two thousand or 24 hundred or 2,400 person in 200 minutes, which is three hours and 20 minutes. At the rate of one person per minute, twelve can baptize 400 or 4,800 people in 400 minutes, which is six hours and forty minutes. They can baptize 4,000 and 800 people in six hours and forty minutes. That's a little over a half a day. Reason for the half a day: to get ready and get down to where they're supposed to be baptizing. Have a whole half a day to get ready for the baptizing. Now just about a half a day to get ready for the baptizing. Now, six hours and forty minutes, it can be done, at the rate of one per minute. ___ your figures before you make a wild statement like that. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, on the day of Pentecost, Peter commanded them to be baptized. How dare you say.... why hasn't he refuted it? Ladies and gentlemen, the Holy Spirit baptism that was commanded, the only baptism commanded is water baptism. I challenge you to find another other baptism commanded, doctor. In as much as commanded ___ in water. Now he said the preaching... they were baptizing 'em when they were preaching. Oh, my, my, my, my. Doctor, Doctor Kinley. Now 1, 1, I'm persuaded that you know better. Now that may be your _, because I believe you are really an honest man. I believe this with all my heart: honest, but honestly mistaken. Now respecting, respecting this preaching, this preaching of being baptized while you're preaching. Let me call attention to this. If they were baptized or being baptized while the preaching was done, Peter didn't know it, and they didn't know it because they asked what to do? Well now when they asked Peter and them what shall we do, why didn't Peter tell them there was nothing for them to do? Why they had already been baptized? 'We were baptizing you while we were preaching to you.'


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


How ridiculous can the man get? So it's saying that Peter didn't know they'd been baptized. He didn't know it, so.., for had he known it, he would have told'em. When, ladies and gentlemen, he commanded a baptism after he preached to 'em. And baptizing always follows teaching and preaching. -, if you please, under this Dispensation of Grace where one is baptized before he was sorry. - - you'll find the record you will find, ladies and gentlemen, that he was sorry first and baptized as a result of the deed. - of confession. Alright. Now I'm glad what he said that the Dispensation of Grace started on the Day of Pentecost. I, I'm glad he did that. And.., you know why I'm glad? Because of the fact, the great commission didn't on the Day of Pentecost, so they were baptized, carrying it out to all of the teaching baptized, they began, they began that work on the Day of Pentecost. That's right. Jesus took 'em. You know He spoke that. Matthew 28:19, Jesus said, Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And they're trying to get you to baptize'em in the name. He said, 'it's not water.' But) don't believe Doctor Kinley, they wouldn't...


(PAUSE IN TAPE)


Now that in the name means by the authority. I believe he's too intelligent a man to deny the fact that in the name means by the authority. I won't believe it till I hear him say it, that in the name doesn't mean by the authority. If it doesn't mean by the authority, you get up here and tell the people that it doesn't mean by the.., in the name doesn't mean by the authority. Anyways he should tell after Jesus had declared all the authority -, He told them, 'to go ye therefore,' because the reason, the reason there that 'I have all authority you go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name, or by My authority, I have it all, and I'm giving you the authority to do the job, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. That's why the rest of 'em... Now he said tonight that Christ took the apostles and told them to do the job, He didn't authorize them to turn it over to anyone else. That's what He said. Bless your heart. In that 28th chapter of Matthew, how Christ gave the great worldwide commandment. He said, go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. Well, what had He commanded them? He commanded them to teach and baptize. And you teach those that you teach to do the same thing.


AUDIENCE: That's right.


PASTOR HOGAN: That's why it's handed on down, that's why Paul even told Timothy the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 6 Ladies and gentlemen, He said, lo, I'm with you alway even unto the end of the world. Not age. That's alright. Alright, then I know the disciples did just exactly what Jesus told 'em. How do you know? Get for me Mark. Mark 16:19 and 20. Well, I think it's time I got to say what's over in 19 and 20. All right?


READER: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them


PASTOR HOGAN: After the Lord had spoken unto them


READER: He was received up into heaven


PASTOR HOGAN: He was received up into heaven


READER: and sat on the right hand of God.


PASTOR HOGAN: and sat on the right hand of God.


READER: And they went forth


PASTOR HOGAN: And they went forth


READER: and preached everywhere.


PASTOR HOGAN: and preached everywhere.


READER: And the Lord working with them


PASTOR HOGAN: What?


READER: the Lord working with them


PASTOR HOGAN: On what terms did the Lord say He'd work with 'em? In Matthew 28:14 is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you even the end of the world. He's with them, only forgiving, you cannot be forgiven. I dare you. And to prove they cannot, try about the 20th verse and the Lord's working with them, and confirmed the word, the sign follow. It's what the Lord's working with him, they were doing what He told 'em. What Jesus tell 'em do? Go teach and baptize. That is water baptism, Doctor Kinley. Literal water. How do you know? He told men to administer it. The only baptism a man can administer is water. I challenge you to point out any other baptism that men can administer. No such thing. You cannot do it; you can't do it. Baptize... _________________________ 6 2 Timothy 2:2 As Peter said, in Acts 2:30, when they asked what to do, then he said repent. This is after he preached to them too. He had preached toward the preaching of them being baptized when he's preaching, he didn't ___ no waste of time. The only teaching the Holy Ghost is doing because they spake as the spirit gave the utterance. So, this is the work of the Holy Spirit, the apostle instrument through whom the Holy Spirit spake. Therefore the Holy Spirit through Peter gave the answer, and if it's the wrong answer, the Holy Spirit is to blame because He was speaking through him. Jesus said, it's not you that speaks but the Spirit that speaks through him. Matthew 1 0 and 20.


They didn't have to take any thought what they were to say. Alright. He told them... the 16th chapter of John, the spirit guides you in all truth. So when they asked what to do, Peter told them repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Fath... or rather repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name Jesus Christ for the remission of the sin, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So, it wasn't Holy Ghost baptism because the Holy Ghost was given after He said repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and as something else is coming. What? You'll receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Holy Ghost is something given to them after they repented and were baptized. Let me tell you ladies and gentlemen, if Peter, if Peter was, or the apostle were baptizing the people on Pentecost when they were preaching, then they baptized them before they had repented, because Peter commanded them to repent, and he didn't say it to them if they hadn't of repented. He didn't tell them to do nothing they'd already done. Repent and be baptized, after. If they were baptizing while the apostles were preaching, they were baptized before they were taught to repent, before they repented. Here you have someone who has not repented already baptized. Someone yet in their sin, baptized with the Holy Ghost, the Holy.., and God doesn't give the Holy Spirit to people who haven't obeyed Him. Acts 5:32. His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost whom God has given to all them that obey Him. Or in Galatians 4 and 6, we have witness of these things, or 6 and 4, or 4 and 6 rather. We witness these things that God called, or rather the Hol.., rather God has sent the, because you are sons that's what I meant, because ye are sons, God has sent the spirit upon, in your hearts crying Abba Father. It's not to make you a son, but because you are a son.


SOMEONE: Right.


PASTOR HOGAN: God sent the spirit in the hearts of those who will obey. Alright, so much for that. Now, since he kept mentioning what happened last night, or before I get to that, you better go and get for me Colossians 2, 2 and 11. They harped on that. Went back, picked it up. Colossians 2 and 11. We better get that and then I wanna get on something else. Read.

READER: In whom also ye are, ye are circumcised


PASTOR HOGAN: In whom also ye are circumcised


READER: with the circumcision made without hands,


PASTOR HOGAN: with the circumcision made without hands,


READER: in putting off the body of


PASTOR HOGAN: Now listen. He said, Paul records those under the law were circumcised. Their circumcision were by hands, a fleshly circumcision that was made with hands, but the circumcision in putting off the body of the sin of the flesh is without hands. Now that's what he said. Read it again.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of sins of the flesh.


PASTOR HOGAN: How is it done?


READER: by the circumcision of Christ:


PASTOR HOGAN: by the circumcision of Christ. Well, how is it done?


READER: Buried with him in baptism,


PASTOR HOGAN: Buried with him in baptism or after you repented, repent and be baptized, everyone of you


(AUDIENCE STARTS TO REACT OR CHUCKLE)


in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins or afterwards you've received in our hearts, thou rise and be baptized unto water, only by them calling in the name of the Lord. Ephesians 5 and 25. Husband love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church and Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. And this gentleman doesn't know the difference in the water, or cleansing of the Church and cleansing his house. He doesn't know the difference between feet and Church, because he went over there last night to the 13th chapter of John where Christ washed the disciples feet and said, and said, the washing of Ephesians 5:25 was the washing that took place in the 13th chapter of John. 13th chapter of John, Christ was washing the disciples feet. In the fifth chapter of Ephesians, there in the 25th verse, husbands love your wives even so also Christ has also loved the Church and gave Himself for it. It. What it? What is there to the teaching of the pronoun it? What is the matter with you? ___ ___ ___ the pronoun said. ___ ___ ___ ___, or the pronoun that His Church, gave Himself for it that He might sanctify and cleanse It, when it's the Church, not the disciples feet.


SOMEONE: That's right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Doctor Kinley, don't you know the difference between feet and the Church?


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)


Now he went, he went, he went to the 13th... one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard. Went to the 13th chapter of the book of John where Christ was washing the disciples feet. Christ is teaching a lesson that they couldn't understand. Why even the disciples had been arguing, whosoever is greater or who'd be greatest in the Kingdom. And Christ is teaching 'em, I'll be great. I'll teach them a lesson of humility; and it's also pointed out in that chapter. Alright. So, 1, 1, I hope he knows to recognize that the Church is one thing and feet another. Course He did wash the disciples' feet with literal water, and He cleansed the Church with literal water. Yeah, that He might sanctify, listen -, sanctify. What else? And cleanse it. How? With the washing of water. How? By the word. If you preach the word here, you'll baptize people in water for the remission of their sins. Alright. Now let's go back, circumcision. They was out there and buried with Him in baptism and then also, ye are risen with, how?


READER: through the faith of the operation of God,


PASTOR HOGAN: through the faith. Of who?


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: the operation of God,


READER: who has raised Him from the dead.


PASTOR HOGAN: who has raised Him from the dead, buried, as the gentlemen there would have it. Buried in baptism, an operation'll take place, and God's doing the operation without hands. What is it doing? It's the putting off of the sins of the flesh. That's how you gotta do it. That's how you get rid of your sins. That's how you put off the sin of your flesh is by being buried in baptism. Why on earth did you sin? And God's the one who does the pardoning, when you do what He says do, like He said do.


AUDIENCE: Right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Alright. After He come on down... There's some many of things, that he said tonight or in this, this argue tonight, that isn't worth listening to, I'd rather consider it; however I want to call attention to a few other things that he brought out, that he discussed even non stop. Oh yeah, I want back there, second ch... the 20th verse of that second chapter. He went there, I don't wanna leave that. 20th verse of the second chapter of Colossians.


READER: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ


PASTOR HOGAN: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ. How?


READER: from the rudiments of the world,


PASTOR HOGAN: from the rudiments of the world,


READER: Why,


PASTOR HOGAN: You know when people obey the gospel, they are separated from the world. That's means a separation for the dea.., that dead in Christ the rudiments of the world. Why as though


READER: living in the world,


PASTOR HOGAN: living in the world,


READER: are you subject to ordinances,


PASTOR HOGAN: are you subject to ordinances,


READER: Taste not;


PASTOR HOGAN: Now listen. What's he talking about the rudiments of the world? Why are you subject? And that could refer to the Jewish world, and that of course has passed. That is.., that ended at the cross. Why are you subject to ordinances? Now, listen. What do you think... What did He say?


READER: Touch not;


PASTOR HOGAN: touch not. He's gonna tell you what He's talking about.


READER: taste not;


PASTOR HOGAN: taste not;


READER: handle not;


PASTOR HOGAN: handle not;


READER: Which all are to perish with the using


PASTOR HOGAN: Which all are to perish


READER: with the using;


PASTOR HOGAN: with the using;


READER: after the commandments


PASTOR HOGAN: after the commandments


READER: and doctrines of men?


PASTOR HOGAN: and doctrine of men. That's the very thing that He's talking about. That's what they.., why as though living in the world are you subject to ordinances, the doctrine and commandments of men? The things of the world, you're separated from that. How is it, how, how does that happen? Paul, the sixth chapter out of the book of Romans, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, not in sin, but dead to sin, live longer. Know ye not, that's gonna be the law, as are baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized in death? Therefore we are buried... ___ ___ I wanna go on there because of the fact he's saying you're not baptized into His death, but I want you to know you are baptized into the benefits of Christ's death, because we are baptized into Christ and salvation is in Christ. Second Timothy there 2:1 0. How that all spiritual blessings are in Christ. Ephesians 1 and 3. All of God's promises are in Christ. Second Corinthians 1 and 20. First, you're baptized into Christ. Romans 6 and 3, Galatians 3 and 27. And in Christ there's neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female. So no need for you going over here saying there's one thing for the Jews and another for the Gentiles. In Christ are no Jews, no Gentiles. Christ has freed us. We're all one in Christ. He broke down the wall of partition in order to make a one. But I'll get the ___ ___ ___ into that same chapter. Therefore ye are buried with Him with baptism into death: and that was Christ, here it come, that like as Christ were raised from the dead, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall also in the likeness of His resurrection. Christ first became dead, secondly buried, thirdly He was delivered. The sinner becomes dead to the law, the practice of sin, through the preaching of the gospel, cause the gospel demand that he repent. And as ___ dead, you don't bury him until he's dead. You don't bury live people. So then as, as Christ died first, the sinner died first. The love of practice sin through the preaching the gospel. ___, Christ is buried... And let me tell you, the sinner was all.., and secondly is buried in baptism. Who buries him? Jesus told the disciples to baptize. And baptism comes from the Greek word, baptizo, which means dip, plunge, ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ meaning Christ commanded men to baptize. So then, he's buried in baptism, buried 'em, as Christ was delivered, we find that a sinner's delivered or the one that was a sinner is delivered, if you please, when he was raised in baptism, he's delivered, delivered from the grave of baptism. Delivered from his past sins. Paul, a little further, the 17th verse of the same chapter.


READER: But God be thanked


PASTOR HOGAN: God be thanked


READER: that you were the servants of sin.


PASTOR HOGAN: that you were, you're not now, but you were the servants of sins.


READER: but ye have obeyed from the heart,


PASTOR HOGAN: but ye have obeyed from the heart,


READER: that form of doctrine which was delivered you


PASTOR HOGAN: that form of doctrine which was delivered you


READER: being then made free from sin


PASTOR HOGAN: being then, and then means when. When? When you've obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine. What is that? The death, the burial, the resurrection. You're not to obey that, but to obey the form. The sinner becomes dead to the love of practicing sin. Ephesians 6 and 1 and 2. He's buried. Ephesians, or rather Romans 6:1 and 2 and Romans 6 and 4, he's delivered, he rises to walk in the newness of life. Alright. Back here to being dead,


READER: Being then made free from sin, 7


PASTOR HOGAN: made free from sin


READER: ye become the servants of righteousness


PASTOR HOGAN: you become the servant of righteousness. All right, so much for that, so much for that. And, let me see. Respecting John 3:5, since he brought up so much to discuss last night. John 3:5. This is what Jesus said. And son, you go over to get ___ in Matthews five, Matthews five. The trouble with the gentleman, he imparted the impression that what Jesus said before He died was under the law. Well if under the law, or rather the Dispensation of the Law and not binding in the Dispensation of Grace. What? The fifth chapter of Matthew and the 21st verse says what?


READER: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time


PASTOR HOGAN: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time


READER: Thou shalt not kill.


PASTOR HOGAN: Thou shalt not kill.


READER: And whosoever shall kill


PASTOR HOGAN: And whosoever shall kill


READER: shall be in danger of the judgment.


PASTOR HOGAN: shall be in danger of the judgment. Read.


READER: but I say unto you,


PASTOR HOGAN: but I say... They said this under the Dispensation of the Law, but I say... And you know that's all the way down. I don't have time to read it, but that's all the way down. Matthews 5:21, 22, 27, 28, 33, 34, 30, 39, Jesus said, it says this, but back to the days of old, but I say. And that same Jesus said in Mark 13 and 31, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Don't you know Doctor Kinley wants us to believe that His words did pass away, it's completed at the cross. They nailed it, what Christ said to the cross, because he's been trying to nail John 3:5 to the cross ever since I've known him. and he's not able to do it. Christ said, heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away. In John 48, 12:48, He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth non other as one that judges. Read John 3:5 because somebody's not receiving my Master's word.


READER: Jesus answered


PASTOR HOGAN: Jesus answered _____________________________ 7 Romans 6:18.


READER: verily, verily I say unto thee


PASTOR HOGAN: verily, verily I say unto thee


READER: except a man be born of water


PASTOR HOGAN: except a man be born of water


READER: and of the spirit � · Page 195 · �


PASTOR HOGAN: Of what?


READER: of water.


PASTOR HOGAN: W A T E R, water, didn't say in spiritual water either. No. When spiritual water is mentioned, it's called living water or water of life. But Jesus said, Except a man be born of water; that's why you have to be buried and raised, born ___ of delivery, coming forth. And when one has been buried, when he comes forth, he's born of water and it is all according to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Now, this couldn't be, this could not be, ladies and gentlemen, this could not be a literal now, it's spiritual because it says, except a man is born of water and of spirit. Everyone that is spiritual ___ ___, it makes it spiritual. Let me tell you ladies and gentlemen, this did not go into effect un.., before the Day of Pentecost. On the Day of Pentecost as when.., men started obeying this command. This is a command that started on the Day of Pentecost. That was when the Holy Spirit... How do you know it started with the Day of Pentecost? I'll go over there and hold, I'll go to his, his passage that he loved so much. John 7, John 7:38. This is proof how I know that this born of water and spirit did not start before Pentecost. Read that.


READER: He that believeth on me


PASTOR HOGAN: He that believeth on me


READER: as the scripture hath said


PASTOR HOGAN: as the scripture hath said


READER: out of his belly


PASTOR HOGAN: out of his belly


READER: shall flow


PASTOR HOGAN: shall flow


READER: rivers of living water.


PASTOR HOGAN: rivers of living water.


READER: But this spake he of the spirit,


PASTOR HOGAN: But this spake he of the spirit,


READER: which they that believe on him


PASTOR HOGAN: which they that believe on him


READER: should receive:


PASTOR HOGAN: should receive:


READER: for the Holy Ghost


PASTOR HOGAN: for the Holy Ghost


READER: was not yet given;


PASTOR HOGAN: was not yet given;


READER: because that Jesus was not yet glorified.


PASTOR HOGAN: because Christ was not yet glorified. That's why I know it didn't start before Pentecost, because the spirit wasn't given til the Master went back to Heaven. And it's when He went to Heaven, He sent the Holy Spirit down to ___ flesh and blood. ___ ___. Guess it couldn't have started before Pentecost Doctor. Born of water and of the spirit started under the Dispensation of Grace, the Holy Spirit had to guide them in all truth, and He wasn't given until the Day of Pentecost. Bless your heart. I love you, yes I do. You love one another ___ ___.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


I love you and I'm gonna spank you


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


That's awful. Go ahead. Now, this over here. I brought this thing out now, as I pointed out last night, we know that Christ said this while He was alive, but don't you know you had to stipulate none's will.., no one makes out a will after he's dead. The will has to be made out before he dies; and it's only enforced after he's dead. So ladies and gentlemen, as respecting this very same thing, ___, ___ ___ the Master's here. It says except a man is born of water and the spirit, this is in the will. And it did not become of force until Christ died. So certain, certainly a will and things stipulated therein must be made while the testator liveth, and as he said it become effect after His death, this ___ of water and the spirit, did not stop, if you please, before the Spirit came. The spirit didn't ___ on the Day of Pentecost, or the beginning of the Dispensation of Grace, which you admit. You admit that, you said it tonight. After the Dispensation of Grace started on the Day of Pentecost when this born of water and of the Spirit ___ when the Spirit came.


AUDIENCE: You got it.


PASTOR HOGAN: Spirit was ___ and guiding. Jesus sent Him back to guide and He didn't send Him back until He was glorified. All right, talking about water. Hebrews 10 and 22, Let us draw near with a true heart, full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, bodies washed in pure water. Pure water. Pure. Now you know another thing he been saying around here, that no one can show where any apostle, any apostle was ever sent to baptize a Gentile. And then try to go to some scripture that we go to to ___ ___ ___. You can't do that to me. Get that 10th chapter of book of Acts.


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)


10th chapter of book of Acts. You can't pull that with me, you better pull your feet up, ___ ___ ___. 10th chapter, ___ ___ ___ ___, bless your heart, ___ there, while this man, Cornelius, who's is centurion of a band called the Italian Band, while they were ___ ___ a praying man and God sent an angel and told that angel to send and come and get Peter. And He told him to send for Peter. In the 14th verse, the 1lth chapter, it tells me why, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. Alright. Now here's the man. He sent for him. And if you read the 19th and 20th verses of that 10th chapter where he was ___ ___...


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) While Peter thought on the vision the spirit said unto him Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore and get thee down.


READER: and go with them, doubting nothing


PASTOR HOGAN: and go with them, and carry on ___ ___. He said that I couldn't prove how he's sent to baptize a Gentile. He said that. Now read verse 47 and 48.


READER: Can any man forbid water


PASTOR HOGAN: Well now, back up if you please, about the 34th verse, 35th, 34th.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


PASTOR HOGAN: What God poured out the Holy Spirit, as he began to speak the Holy Spirit fell on them as it did on the Jews at the beginning. Alright, when that happened, what's the 47th verse said?


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


PASTOR HOGAN: And what about it? READER AND


PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.


PASTOR HOGAN: He told him what to do, because the Lord said they would tell thee word whereby thine own house ___ ___. Peter was sent to come down there and teach those people and tell them that God's orders of ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___. Now that is a case of apostle being sent to baptize a Gentile. That's real clear. ___ ___ you said that the Ethiopian wasn't a Gentile. Will you please read that, where you... He said the Ethiopian wasn't a Gentile. I say he was a Gentile. I said he wasn't a Jew. You read that. You say a lotta things, but this place ___ ___ ___. ___ opinion. ___ ___ ___ ___. The point that I'm getting, I'm getting ov... I got the whole Church down at Ephesus were gentiles. Paul says He cleaned 'em with the washing of water by the word; ___ the Gentiles, baptized, that's how they were clean, through the washing of water. And Paul said, Ephesians 4 and 5, there's one baptism. Ephesians 5:25. In water. Alright, bless your heart, thank you very kindly. I get on this other, I got ___ ___ ___ ___.


DECEMBER 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST SECOND NIGHT: DR. KINLEY'S REBUTTAL



DR. KINLEY: ... would like to say, find I don't have much time, but I would like to say this. I sat there and listened attentively to what Doctor Hogan said about that second chapter of Colossians. Now, I want you to go back and read it yourself and see if it's like he said it was. Please read. Begin at the 1lth verse.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,


DR. KINLEY: with the circumcision made without hands,


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: in putting


DR. KINLEY: What, what, what. Hold that right there. Is there a comma or a period, or what is there? Or does that sentence end or finish there?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Comma.


DR. KINLEY: Comma. Now if the circumcision is made without hands, his contention is that you baptize somebody in obedience to the command, so he says, with your hands. Read the rest of the sentence.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh


DR. KINLEY: in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: by the circumcision of Christ.


DR. KINLEY: by the circumcision of Christ. I said, and I'll repeat, that Christ was circumcised eight days after He was born. I said last night too, to hook this up together: the first Adam back in the Garden of Eden, Romans 5:14, don't, don't, we don't have to bother with it, said that he was a figure of Him that was to come. Now, I am telling you that that man, physical man Adam back there in the Garden of Eden, sinned; and death was pronounced upon all men, listen, even over them that had not sinned were included. Now just like that, and that the first Adam, the second Adam is the regenerator. And whatever happened to him: circumcision, that you're reading about here, made without hands; the putting off of the Adamic body of sin. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: buried with him in baptism,


DR. KINLEY: Now look. What's after that?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Comma.


DR. KINLEY: Comma. Listen. That statement is not finished. Now he stopped right there, you hear, it's recorded, and said that when you obey then you were buried with Him by baptism; meaning buried in literal, physical water with hands. And I said that that isn't what it said there. So I'm disputing him on that, and he's shook my confidence in his ability to correctly comprehend what he was reading, as I told you last night. And that it is not a Bible reading contest; it's understanding what you're reading in the Bible. So you're buried with Him by what?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: in baptism


DR. KINLEY: in baptism


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: wherein also


DR. KINLEY: Now right in that. Listen. Please, no hands, in the circumcision. Please no hands in burying him, burying you within Him. No hands if you please. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: wherein also ye are risen with Him


DR. KINLEY: Right in that same thing. What?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: ye are risen with Him


DR. KINLEY: Ye are risen with Him. How's that?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: through the faith of the operation of God


DR. KINLEY: through faith and the operation of, operation of God. God is spirit. All that without any hands. Well, that's what it said there.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: who hath raised him from the dead.


DR. KINLEY: who hath raised him from the dead. Now, Doctor Hogan, Kinley or anybody else can preach until you fall dead, but unless you believe or have some faith and confidence in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it will not help you one bit. You understand? Now that's what's in the Book. And he put in there, can you forbid that form of doctrine, baptizing by hand, he stipulated that in that second chapter there. And I say it's not in there. Then turned around and blamed it on me, said, 'I said.'


(AUDIENCE REACTS)


That's what he did. It's recorded. Well, I didn't say that. I just read, had you to read it out of the Book. You read it correct. All you have to do is just read, read it correct. Whether you're reading for Doctor Hogan or me, either one- all you have to do is read what's in the Book; then understand it. I said, it's recorded, that in the sixth chapter of Romans he said that I said that that was under the Dispensation of the Law. I did not say that.


(AUDIENCE REACTS)


It's recorded. I tell you what I did say, and that is recorded. And I want you to know he misunderstood me. Paul, when he wrote the epistle, - and I even went back in the fifth chapter to get the subject and then come on down to the predicate. And I said that what Paul was talking about in that fifth chapter, told you that death reigned from Adam to Moses, after the similitude of Adam's transgression, even over them that had not sinned. Paul is discussing that. I said, then that baptism, the Jews, I said that. And Paul is talking about that the Jews was baptized under the Dispensation of the Law. I did not said that the epistle was written under the Dispensation of the Law. I said what Paul is talking about in the epistle was under the Dispensation of the Law. And it was. And Brother Hogan knows that it was. I know it and you know it.


What shall we say then? I said Paul was talking about the Jew, telling the gentiles about it, in that epistle. You understand? Oh, I tell you. More things I'd like to call attention to, that he said that Jesus said and Kinley said. You got it all recorded. We played the tape over today that was made last night. And some of them same stupid errors is in that tape, saying I said things that I didn't say. Saying the thing means something and it don't mean... I asked for just one gentile, just one, don't want but one. And he said, in the 10th chapter of Acts of Apostles, I'm talking about Cornelius, the last verse of it. Peter commanded them to be baptized in the water. Peter did do that. I don't have no dispute and argument with that. If Peter said anything other than that, then, then we'd be in a dispute. Now here's what I want you to know. Why not just try reading on in the 11th chapter of Acts of Apostles and see what happened after Peter said that. Now Peter was in Joppa on a housetop, when those men come from Cornelius' house to Joppa, I don't have time to go in a whole lotta detail of it no how. See. And Peter said, nothing common or unclean has entered into my mouth at any time. And I tried my best when I was here a while ago, on the floor speaking. I tried to point out in the Great Commission, as you call it, Jesus said, go into all the world and baptize every creature, I tried to point that out. Cornelius is a creature. You are a creature. Now Peter on the housetop up there, said, not so Lord. It is so that He did send him. Told him about it even before he was on the housetop or before He ascended. But when time comes for him to go, seven years later, Peter had forgotten about it, well he just might as well anyhow, there wasn't no need of him trying to remember. And why it wasn't necessary for him to remember? Cause Jesus said this, He said this under the Dispensation of the Law too. Said when the Holy Ghost is come, isn't that right, He'll bring all things that I have said to your remembrance. So it wasn't necessary for him to remember, cause the Holy Ghost when He comes brought it to his remembrance. And I tried to point a while ago that in the first chapter of Acts of Apostles that Jesus said, after He'd risen from the dead, and after John had finished up his baptizing that Jesus said John truly baptized with water but... There's your conjunction again. You shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. And to make a long story real short. They did receive the Holy Ghost. Now I wanna go down in that 10th chapter, but I want you to see how I'm going into it. And in that 11 th chapter of Acts of Apostles. Please try not to miss me this trip. See. Peter commanded him to be baptized, gentile, in literal, physical water- When Peter went back up to Jerusalem, I didn't say Joppa, I said Jerusalem, where the rest of the apostles were, and Peter called their attention to the ___. Is that right? Now when Peter got back up there in Jerusalem, in Judea, will you listen right here? I'll be patient.


(AUDIENCE)


He started all over again at the beginning of it and rehearsed the whole entire proceeding, what took place and what happened. And then... maybe you better read it.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And as I began to speak the Holy Ghost fell on them and on us at the beginning, then remembered I the word of the Lord.


DR. KINLEY: Then remembered I the Word of the Lord. What I'm trying to tell you is this. Now it wasn't God's mistake. They got the Holy Ghost without being baptized in literal, physical water. And Doctor Hogan stood up here and marked on this board a while ago, said you don't bury live men. You heard... it's on the recording machine. Brother, when he got the Holy Ghost, he was made alive. It's against the law to bury by baptism as Peter had commanded him to be. And when Peter made that command, you got it right there, it's in the Book, said, then remembered I the words of the Lord, how He said, John truly baptized in water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Believe it or not it is in there.


Now there's something else I wanna call attention to, because it effects the same thing. And I mentioned it at last night, and I wanna mention it again. Please keep this connected with that, statements we just made. In the 15th chapter of Saint John, Jesus said, I am the true vine, My Father is the husbandman; every branch that bears not fruit in Me, that He takes it away. 'Who takes it away?' My Father. 'Who is your Father?' God. 'Who is God?' God is spirit, so it's spirit broken off, broke them branches off. That is in the Book. Those words were spoken under the Dispensation of the Law. And they took affect on the Day of Pentecost, they were broke off. Now I want you to watch this one.


[TAPE 3, SIDE B]


DR. KINLEY: Romans the 1 lth chapter and begin to read at the 17th verse, And please stop mak.., trying to make Paul dispute hisself.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And if some of the branches be broken off


DR. KINLEY: Now if some of the branches be broken off


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: and thou being a wild olive tree


DR. KINLEY: and thou being a wild olive tree


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: were grafted in among them


DR. KINLEY: were grafted in among what?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: among them


DR. KINLEY: Among them. Grafted in among them. I said grafted in among them. Read.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: and with them partaketh of the root and


DR. KINLEY: and with them partaketh the


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: and with them partaketh of the root


DR. KINLEY: and with them partaketh of the root


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: and fatness of the olive tree


DR. KINLEY: and fatness of the olive tree


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: boast not against the branches.


DR. KINLEY: Don't you be boasting against the branches. Read on.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: But if thou boast


DR. KINLEY: But if thou boast


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: thou barest not the root


DR. KINLEY: thou barest not the root. Read on, I'm in a hurry.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Thou will say then the branches were broken off.


DR. KINLEY: Thou will say then... Now look, the branches, the branches, not the root, the branches- What?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: that I might be grafted in.


DR. KINLEY: that you might be grafted in. The branches. After the seed has been planted, then the tree comes up. And I tried my best to tell you that John was planting, burying 'em by baptism into His death. Now you.., Doctor Hogan said, I said that. I did not say that. If you read the Book, there in the fifth and sixth chapter of Romans, you'll see that I didn't say it. Read on about these branches.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Well because of unbelief


DR. KINLEY: Well because of unbelief


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: They were broken off


DR. KINLEY: They were broken off


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: And thou standest by faith


DR. KINLEY: Huh?


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Thou standest



DR. KINLEY: Now, now wait a minute, now you make sure. You make sure that you read that like it's in the Book. You know what my contention is there? I'm telling you that those Gentiles was not planted. They were grafted in by faith. And they stood by faith, that's the Book. Now if you wanna argue, argue with the Book. That's what happened. Grafted in, ye stand by faith. Not among the roots, but the branches. That means after the tree has come up, the branches about it, then every branch broken off, the Gentile grafted in. Missed the planting procedure, he's grafted in. Missed that water baptism.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


Now that's a fact you can't argue with. You know good and well, John wasn't baptizing nobody out there but the gen... but the Jew. Planting. See. Why argue with the facts? Then I wanna let you know this. See, God down at Cornelius' house, gave them the Holy Ghost before any water. 'What are you doing that for God?' Grafting 'em in. 'How?' By faith. 'What'd you do that for?' I promised that in his seed I'll bless all the families of the earth, and I'm fulfilling My promise of pouring out the Spirit on the Gentile. Isn't that right? It was.., now then Paul's talking to you in the second chapter of Colossians, going right back to the same thing in the third chapter of Romans.


FRED ALLEN: You got five minutes.


DR. KINLEY: Okay. See. Now, the Gentile, ___, see, through his mind then he understands that when Christ was crucified, he was crucified and buried with Christ and risen with Him without getting in that water. Do you see that now? Now I didn't fix up this Book. I had nothing to do with it. See. Now under this Dispensation of Grace, this Dispensation of Grace, Doctor Hogan went down there in the second chapter of Colossians and read this. If ye be dead with Christ, talking to the Gentile, from the rudiments of the world, why as though living in the world are ye yet subject to ordinances? My contentions is preaching the gospel, that's what Jesus Christ sent 'em to do, to preach the gospel and that remission sin should be preached in the name beginning at Jerusalem. And that is what they done. And they was baptizing 'em in the name when they was AO". preaching the gospel. He said, 'no.' I say yes. That's the argument, You decide. I said on the Day of Pentecost, he that believeth on Me as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, this spake He of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost or when Jesus did speak those things under the Dispensation of the Law, John explained, this spake He of the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost was not yet given at the time. It was given on the Day of Pentecost. And when they spoke preaching unto the Gentiles, I mean preaching unto the Jews on the Day of Pentecost, according to the law and according to the prophets, there was living water flowing out of their belly. Yes, it was. Believe it or not. But it's apparent, as he said last night about the eunuch, see, said, that here is water. See, see it. Anything he can't see, you understand, it don't mean nothing to him. So living water flowing out of their belly, you couldn't see that.


(AUDIENCE RESPONDS)


So it don't mean nothing to him. It does to me. It's great. And there's a whole lotta things that needs to be said, and one of the things I wanna say right here. I was glad you said that last night too, Doctor Hogan. Doctor Hogan, I'm glad you said that last evening that we were welcome down at his place on Figueroa. And if he was right about it, I said he could have, me included, the whole entire audience, if he could take that Book and prove he was right. And he said he was in perfect agree... and harmony with that. That's what he said. In other words, if that's the way it is, you understand, then if you're right about it, you can have all of this. I know what the man meant by that. He meant that we should study together, which he and I both should be willing to do was to submit ourselves to righteousness of God. Otherwise there would be no point in having a debate or a discussion. Now I brought that up, so I could say this. Brother Hogan, I will be down and you, the audience and congregation that belongs to the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research, please go down.


SOMEONE: Time is up.


DR KINLEY: Time is up. Do that please.


DECEMBER 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST SECOND NIGHT: PASTOR HOGAN'S REBUTTAL


PASTOR HOGAN: Come on down and do like he said, come on down there and baptize you for the remission of sins in water like the Bible teaches. Now he said we oughta submit ourselves to the righteousness of God. That is the last statement he said. SOMEONE: That's right,


PASTOR HOGAN: That's right, that's right doctor. All of you heard, amen, that's what he, we ought to submit ourselves to the righteousness of God. David said, 119th division of Psalms, 122 verse, all of God's commandments are right, so we ought to submit to the commandments. In Mark 16:16, he that believeth and be baptized shall be saved, ___ ___ the other day. In John 3:5 except a man is born of water and of the spirit, he shall not enter the Kingdom of God, the kingdom of God. We should submit to that, cause the Lord ordered that. And when you submit to that, then there won't any difference between us, but when you rebel against it and try to show that it's the water that came out of that.., or flow out of the belly of them believers in which.., being water baptized then of course there's no agreement there, because the Bible doesn't teach that. I asked you to read last night, I asked you to read in the Bible where you'd be baptized in that water. You haven't read it yet. You haven't read that yet. And I don't know why that the Doctor completely ignored the arguments that I have put before you. I call attention Hebrews 10:25, 22. Let us draw near with a true heart with full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, bodies washed in pure water. He hasn't mentioned that. I also respected the man of Ethiopia. He just called attention to it. And went there and said, I said, 'see, see.'


Why did he prove that to be wrong? He said I don't accept anything that 1, 1, I can't see. Well doctor, you're wrong. Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I accept faith, but when you hear the gospel, you'll get the faith, when you believe it, you've got faith, when you get rid of your sin, that's faith -, when you confess -, that's faith acknowledged. And when you're baptized that's faith obeys, because He commanded baptism. If you had the faith that believes you'd obey God, you would submit to water baptism, because He commanded men to repent. I repeatedly have pointed out that the water baptism, men shall administer the water. Have you ever heard him touch it? You know why he didn't touch it? He know it's the truth. I also affirm the only baptism commanded is water. And I pointed out the Holy Spirit baptism in water commands is the promise. That the only baptism commanded is water. Has he touched it? No, he just left it alone. You know why? I don't blame him. Too hot to handle, can't teach the doctrine that he teaches, he'd have to give up what he teaches. He admitted that, or he just left ___ do now.., let that alone, because that dynamite to my God. I don't blame you, I'd left it alone too.


Jesus commanded baptism, commanded His disciples to baptize. That's water. Anytime it's commanded, it's water. I challenge him to read where anyone has ever ordered to be baptized in the water that flowed out of the belly of the disciples. Apostles received the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost and spake as the spirit gave the utterance. He said He was talking about the Holy Spirit, that was spiritual, and he qualified it by saying, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. In Acts, or rather in John 3:5, except a man is born of water and of the Spirit of he shall not see the Kingdom. He said those Gentiles... I have to get to each point ___ ___ ___. Those Gentiles were not planted, ___ that water, but he's out there saying he didn't say it. I got the record here a while, when I got up here and say he said thus and so, he said it. ___ ___ ___, he did say it. Romans 6 and 4. He pointed out you could not be baptized in Christ's death because Christ was already dead, that is why John was baptizing the before He died. He said this was under the Dispensation of the Law. Don't tell me, I heard you. Say when I get up here and read there right in the same chapter, where Paul said you're not under the Law but under Grace. He denies, I didn't say it. I don't blame him for saying I didn't say it. For Paul plainly said that I'm... And he keeps running to John 15. 1 didn't mention it last night because it wasn't worth it. And it isn't worth it tonight. Ladies and gentlemen, John 15 was talking about an individual ___ and individual disciples, not the Jewish nation that was broken off. Go over there and get it. John 15. 1 am the true vine, READER AND


PASTOR HOGAN: (PASTOR HOGAN QUOTES SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE READER EXCEPT FOR THE UNDERLINED WORDS) My father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

READER: I am the vine,


PASTOR HOGAN: I am the vine,


READER: ye are the branches.


PASTOR HOGAN: Ye are who?


READER: He that abideth in me


PASTOR HOGAN: He, not the nation. He that abides in me


READER: and I in him


PASTOR HOGAN: and I in him


READER: the same brings forth more fruit


PASTOR HOGAN: the same brings forth more fruit. Read.


READER: for without me ye can do nothing.


PASTOR HOGAN: for without me ye... Read.


READER: If a man abide not in me,


PASTOR HOCIAN: If a nation


READER: If a man


PASTOR HOGAN: If a nation


READER: If a man


PASTOR HOGAN: He sure thinks that a man's a nation. OOOO, my goodness. And this man went right over to the 11 th chapter of a book of Romans to show they are grafted in and said they were not planted, they were grafted in and then, bless your heart, turned right around and said they were planted. Now ladies and gentlemen, I, I made a note of this, those gentiles were not planted, then afterwards he went all the way around about this grafting in business, then he said they were planted, but he referred to the fact they planted by faith. Now how � · Page 204 · � could they be planted and not planted? Now first he said, well not.., they were, they were, first he said they were not planted. But read it, Romans 6 and 5. READER AND


PASTOR HOGAN: (READS AND QUOTES SIMULTANEOUSLY. ONE LEFT OUT THE UNDERLINED PORTIONS) For if ye have been planted in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.


PASTOR HOGAN: And that were Gentiles from his text. The 1 1 th chapter of the book of Romans, talking to the Gentiles that was grafted in and told no gentile, don't you boast. Amen doctor. I'm so glad you give me things, but you hear the taping now, and then get up here, act like you didn't pay any attention to what I said, cause I didn't say it. Now, ladies and gentlemen, he also called attention to the fact.., now this grafting in. Were they grafted in, sign of obedience to God's water. Certainly not. How were they grafted in? Ladies and gentlemen those same people, those same people heard. Romans 10:17, the faith come by hearing. They couldn't believe without hearing. They believed, tenth chapter of Romans. Romans 10: 1 7. I'll start at the 13th verse, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall call on him in whom whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe him in whom they have not heard? How shall they hear without a preacher? How shall they preach, except they be sent? So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. They heard. They believed. Romans 10:9 and 10. They repented. Romans 2:4, they confessed. Romans 10 and 10: they were baptized. Romans 6:3 and 4: here's the planting. Romans 5: is the resurrection. Romans 5... Romans 6 and 5: and the yellow light we ___ also in the like of resurrection.


So they was planted, they were baptized. That was a planting and that doesn't call for Holy Ghost baptism. Before the Holy Ghost baptism there was a planting. You read about Holy Ghost baptism was a planting, only true record of the Holy Ghost baptism on June, died on the Day of Pentecost, just how a person of the household of Cornelius, we didn't discuss tonight. Now the resurrection of the Holy Spirit now. 'Who told you to be baptized with the Holy Ghost? Why is it a ___ for me to baptize, the Holy Ghost. This is special, not ___. You, yourself, went to the first chapter of the book of Acts and quoted part of it. Be ye baptized the Holy Ghost not many days hence. But who was he talking to? He was talking to the apostles. He told the apostles in the 24th chapter of Luke, tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. And in the first chapter of the book of Acts.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (START READING AND QUOTING AT THE SAME TIME, THE READER CAN'T KEEP UP AND LEAVES OUT THE UNDERLINED PARTS) The former treatise have I made, 0 Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken ui), after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:


PASTOR HOGAN: I know this isn't a... this is a scripture quoting contest, but I have to tell what's in that Book. You can't quote it like that brother, don't get up here and criticize me for doing it. I quote cause I have it in me. I've said it. Commanded to who:


READER: to the apostles


PASTOR HOGAN: to everybody


READER: unto the apostles


PASTOR HOGAN: and who did he tell to stay there and wait for it. The apostles whom he had chosen, to whom also He showed Himself alive,


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE AT THE SAME TIME) after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God; and being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


PASTOR HOGAN: And he said that is 10 days, later.


WOMAN: Yes, he did.


PASTOR HOGAN: Not so. It was 10 days from the Passover to the Day of Pentecost, and Christ is in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights. That ___ ___ cut off three days of that, so at least seven days ___ ___ ___ doctor.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


___ ___ ___. ___ ___ ___ ___ This is after He died from the grave when He told 'em. You shake your head til it falls off, but it's after He got up from the grave when He told 'em to tar.., not leave Jerusalem. And He's in the heart of the earth three days, three nights. Um, um, um. Alright. I'll keep on railing on that Gentile baptism. Gentile baptism about it, Peter forgot it. Well ladies and gentlemen, when the Holy Ghost came, it didn't come on Peter, it didn't come on the, on the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, I mean on the Jews, it came on the Gentiles. Peter already had the H.., he was already under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And you mean to tell me the Holy Spirit let him forget what he's supposed to do? ___ he has got it, he has got it from the house top to household of Cornelius, he got it by the, by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, when He come, you got it in all truth. Peter ___ ___ ___ ___. That shut up. He will guide you in all truth. And here, household of Cornelius, he's getting ready, he'll guide Peter in the truth. He guided them all the way down alright. He guided him ___, but when he got ready at the baptism, he didn't slip up. Isn't that funny, when you get to water baptism, it's so silly, he just simp.., just forget about it.


Ladies and gentlemen, no, the Holy Spirit came on those Gentiles, I proved last night, as a proof to the Jews that the Gentiles accepted, with no difference between the Jew and Gentile, given them a like dose of the Holy Spirit as in the Jew. And when Peter saw it, said, can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized, who received the Holy Ghost with water. He didn't forget that. He didn't forget that. Ladies and gentlemen let me tell you if he did under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was responsible for the mistake and not Peter. If what you said's true. You're blaming the Holy Spirit. Oh ladies and gentlemen, sure, he was reminded of his own baptism, when he witnessed the gentiles being baptized, he was reminded of his own baptism. Water baptism. So many time I hear a sermon and I'm reminded of my own sermon. It wasn't the fact that I forgotten the sermon I was preaching, but then this resembled what happened to me, what I did. Oh, my goodness. Ladies and gentlemen, our circumcision made without hands, I'll have to call attention to that. Go back there to Colossians 2 and 12, about this circumcision that is made without hands. Colossians 2:12, because this time is what I want. Ah, He said I'll stop and I given you unto such thing.


READER AND PASTOR HOGAN: (THEY READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY.) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


PASTOR HOGAN: Said, 'who did the operating?' God's did the operating, man did the baptizing, but God does the operating. He told 'em to baptize, go and teach all nations, baptizing them. Just one baptism He commanded man to do. The only baptism man can administer is water. So man, Peter told men, get to baptizing certainly, because the Lord commanded him, but God did the operating. Man doesn't forgive a man of his.., tell a man he's loosed from his sin. His job is to bury em in baptism and God's job's to pardon the sin. Obedience is ___. Why is ___ ___? If he don't know that, I can't help you. Nobody else. We never have a time that permit him to leave that we are pardoning and baptizing. We are baptized and God does the pardoning. It's the operation of God. He's operated on in baptism, that is he's cut loose from the sin and God does that, but it's in.., buried in baptism. And the only one baptism is water and man administers it. Bless your heart. You haven't been baptized with the Holy Ghost, you can wait for that. Only one baptism, and that's the baptism men are commanded to administer. Alright. Well, no need to be bothered anymore of that because it isn't worth it. If I have a few more minutes I wanna call attention to a few more things. I wonder, I wonder why as I said that he overlooked, overlooked the fact that the Lord teaches that our bodies should be washed in pure, pure. And then I wonder why did he go to the eighth chapter of the book of Acts, where the eunuch as they came to certain water.


The only Bible baptism calls for coming to the water or going down into the water, or baptized in ___ ___ and then coming up out of the water. Isaiah, the eunuch said, see here is water, showing there is literal water, natural water. Water he could see. Water he could handle. Water he could go down into. Why didn't you... why didn't you show how the ___ ___ ___, instead of going there and saying Hogan said that see here's water and left that. Sure, I said, 'see here is water.' That's what the eunuch said. 'What doth hinder me to be baptized?' They got out of the chariot, went down in the water, and the preacher was only guided to the spirit. Did they do wrong? Did the spirit guide the.., Philip into doing the wrong thing, when he taught that eunuch took him down into literal, natural water and baptized? Did the spirit do wrong? According to Doctor, he did wrong, because that baptism is only under the Dispensation of the Law. Bless your heart. And Ephesians five. Wonder why he didn't get back? He had his answer for my argument. I got argument about that, making... or washing feet, and washing the di.., the church didn't cleanse and sanctify by the washing of water. Do you know he did? He just politely left it alone. Every time he got on to something, I was there to spank him. He didn't wanna be spanked anymore so he left it alone, just like a little child, went he feels sugar, you spank him, 'you better leave that jar alone.' Yeah, you gonna leave that business alone brother. Do you see? That's the.., there's where you leave it alone because he knew that it was a ridicules argument. Especially for him, trying to make washing feet for washing the church. Bless your heart.


You know one thing he hadn't bothered John 3:5. I'm glad I took care of that, poured it out, it started. Just starting to making a summary now. It started on the Day of Pentecost and he admitted that it was the Dispensation of Grace. And I pointed out that it didn't start before then because the Holy Spirit didn't come until the Day of Pentecost. I wonder why did he left that alone? Thank God there's one thing in this debate, I think your Doctor will leave a lotta things alone. And you been tampering with Jesus, now if you get ___ ___ tell him to shut him up. Should have gotten over while I was here to work him over. That's it. When he gets done with this thing, now he... our people, our people listen to you, a hook, swallow up hook, line, and sinker, but it isn't what I said. They say, 'well, I don't agree, I ___.' It isn't that. In his first talk, he got up using I so much, I wanted to drop my head. I this, I that, I the other, talk about his education and how is going to be supported. I wanted.., we're not interested in your popularity. We are interested in the truth. Preach now, said Paul, but Christ teaches the Lord and I'll say unto you, you're ___ for Jesus sake. Alright. I had it down here. I don't know how many times he used 1.


Give us the history of hisself, instead of spending that time answering my argument or of defending something on the penitent, he's around talking about what he has done, and how he came into California, and what... how popular he was, and all of that. He was wound up and let me tell you first, be careful when they go to try to build themselves up, and talking so much themselves, and they'll turn it over, they give up, like the old the world of ___, give it up. A good bucket of them kicked it over, after all of that, showing that he's worthy all his titles DD and PhD, turned around went to the Bible to prove that DD meant dumb dog. And that's his title. I'm.., I don't like.... that's what he did tonight. The man certainly doesn't know, he doesn't know whether he's coming or going. Talk about conglomerating things, he can conglomerate things in getting such a conglomeration... And let me tell you this and I ___ ___ ___. The 16th chapter of Romans, 17th verse. 17th verse. 'Then of course I mean to do right. I'd rather to take Christ's words...' Well, if you're ready to take His words, get out and say, 'I've wrong on John 3:5, except a man is born of water and of the spirit. I've been wrong on it. I'm wrong on water baptism.


Why? Because Christ commanded on men to baptize I em. I'm wrong when I say they were baptizing when they were preaching.' That's what different, because they were commanded to be baptized after the preaching. I've explained that. He said, but that's stated again, you're baptizing and that's about... last of the argument, you're baptizing when you're preaching. Jesus said go preach the gospel, he that believeth and baptized shall be saved. You preaching baptism comes after the preaching. I quoted, I even read over where it came after the teaching or preaching. They're not the same thing. Teaching's one thing, and baptizing's another. I think you tried to tell us what the school is, you should know what teaching is. He got up here and then talk about the school, what it is. Said he was a member of the Church of Christ. Well he's not a member of the church that believeth out of the Bible, not Christ's Church, they said, because the only way you can enter Christ's church is by born of water and the spirit. You better ask Billy Graham.


(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)


And he said if therefore water be you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. And the Kingdom and the Church is one and the same. No, you're not in it and won't be in it until you're baptized into Christ. Baptized into Christ, ladies and gentlemen, and be baptized into Christ is to be baptized in fire and to be baptize, in church baptized, ___ ___. Read it there.


READER: Now I beseech you, brethren


PASTOR HOGAN: Now I beseech you, brethren


READER: mark them which cause


PASTOR HOGAN: mark them that cause READER AND


PASTOR HOGAN: (READER AND PASTOR HOGAN READ AND QUOTE SIMULTANEOUSLY. THE UNDERLINED PORTION PASTOR HOGAN LEFT OUT.) divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


PASTOR HOGAN: they have learned that water baptism for remission of sin. They have learned that they were candidates in a degree in baptism and of course, they were raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection. They have learned what -Ink baptism would follow, while the apostle Paul himself wasn't doing the talk, why ladies and gentlemen, he was told to rise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Call on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16. Now they said, you mark them that cause division and offence, contrary to doctrine you have learned. This is what this man's been teaching contrary to doctrine they learned. And what?


READER: and avoid them.


PASTOR HOGAN: And avoid them.


READER: For they that are such


PASTOR HOGAN: for they that are such


READER: serve not our Lord Jesus Christ


PASTOR HOGAN: serve not our Lord Jesus Christ


READER: but their own belly


PASTOR HOGAN: Just doing it like he wants it. Their own belly. And what about it.


READER: and by good words and fair speeches


PASTOR HOGAN: and by good words. Oh, with good words. ___ ___ ___ ___. You know, you heard that. And by ___ ___.


READER: deceive the hearts of the simple.


PASTOR HOGAN: deceive everybody.


READER: deceive the hearts of the simple


PASTOR HOGAN: hearts of everybody


READER: the simple.


PASTOR HOGAN: The only one a person like that can deceive is a simple, according to the Bible. Anytime a person get up and tell you that you're baptized in the water that flows from the belly of the disciples, if you accept that; he's deceiving himself. Deceive only the simple. 'Well, that's real teaching.'


READER: and by good words


PASTOR HOGAN: by good words


READER: and fair speeches


PASTOR HOGAN: (PASTOR HOGAN CLAPS)


READER: deceive the hearts of the simple.


PASTOR HOGAN: Can't deceive me with that business. Can't deceive, can't deceive any, the spirit of the Bible with that business, have to be someone who's simple enough to take what he's saying and not what the Bible teaches.


AUDIENCE: That's right.


PASTOR HOGAN: Amen. God help you to recognize that. And ladies and gentlemen, there's so many things I would like to call your attention to that time won't allow me to go into, but we're going back. If you please, the first, second Adam, out of the first or second Adam... Adam, being the first Adam brought death, and the second Adam brought the resurrection of the dead. Read the 15th chapter of first Corinthians the 21st verse, how he wants you to read that in what, what the first Adam did brought death on everybody, well what the second Adam, Adam did, well, that's was just ___, you don't have to do anything; other words when Christ was baptized of John, He was baptized for you. Everybody's baptized. That's his doctrine, he won't deny that either. If he does, he'll deny what he put out, even in black and white. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, when Jesus said, it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness, God has commanded baptism and Jesus came to do the will of the Father. And He went to John and told John to suffer it to be so now, for thus it becomes us, not me, but us. You were sent to baptize and I'm submitting to it too. I'm gonna fulfill it of all the commandments of God. Therefore it becomes us to fulfill all righteous, not Me. Fulfill, as he pointed out means to perform or to complete or adhere to the progress of, to carry out. I baptize, I'm baptizing, I'll carry out all of God's commandments. Therefore... Well read.


READER: For since by man came death


PASTOR HOGAN: Since by man came death


READER: by man came also the resurrection of the dead


PASTOR HOGAN: by man came also the resurrection of the dead


READER: For as in Adam all die,


PASTOR HOGAN: For as in Adam all die,


READER: even so in Christ


PASTOR HOGAN: even so in Christ


READER: shall all be made alive.


PASTOR HOGAN: shall we all be made alive. Where, how are they made alive? John 6:63, He said now it is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, but the words which I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. What the words, they are spiritual words and they are life, hear the word. You'll have to obey His word or life you'll never have. What was His word? Except a man is born of water and of the spirit. He can not enter the kingdom of God. Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. He said the spirit receives mine, receives mine to show unto you. John 16 and 13. Therefore, Acts 2:20, repent and be baptized in the every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Galatians 3:27, many of you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Acts 22:16. Now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized and wash away your sins, call on the name of the Lord. Acts 8:.36. ___ ___ ___ ___


(NOT AN EXACT QUOTE)


said water. Went down to the water to be baptized him. Yes he did. John 12:48. He that rejected me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken unto you,


(UNTO YOU WAS ADDED TO THE VERSE)


the same shall judge him in the last day. Why you ought be ___ ___, you're rejecting His words. Can't reject His words without rejecting Him. I'll pin any man that'll reject the words of my Master. And told men to baptize, that's water baptism, He commanded baptism. That's water baptism. Let me tell you it was under the Dispensation of Grace and not the Law. Commission baptism was after Christ died. I wondered if he.., you know what his contention is that is a carnal ordinance and was nailed to the cross. I won't even bother with that 14th verse, blot 'em out here, but you know he stayed off of that. I tell you when you smell a rat, you better let... , you better let the thing alone, I'll be trying to show it to him. _____________________ 8 Acts 2:38. 13th chapter of the book of Matthew and the 15th verse, this people's heart waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and be converted and I'll heal them for thou. He said, now it I show it him ___, he'd all of 'em come over and become members of Church. How can you show him, you got your eyes shut to it. It's plain enough when He said except you're born of water and the spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. There it is: literal water. And it's a spiritual subject because the spirit is connected with it. Do what you're saying you're gonna do, come on down and let us baptize you forgiveness of sin into the body of Christ in water, like Jesus said, and become a Christian, a member of the Lord's Church. Amen. God bless you. Now listen. I have an emphatic way of presenting words. Don't you ever give an impression that Doctor Kinley and Hogan are enemies. Don't you ever label an impression that I'm an enemy of Doctor Kinley. I love him and that's why I spank him.


(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES)


He whom the Lord loves, He chasteneth, so I just... I just, when it comes to God's word I have to bear down, but I love you doctor. I believe in all of you, all of you fine folks. My manners is just my manners. Old Popeye say that I am what I am and that's all I am. That's just my manner. Love in my heart always. Thank you kindly folks. Thank you very kindly every one of you for the time. Let's go home. Ah, Doctor Kinley, thank you very kindly, he asked me to tell you what time the meetings are that was our purpose. We have a Sunday morning Bible class starts at 9:30 and continues to 10:45. Our regular worship service starts at 1 1 o'clock. Our evening service starts at 6 o'clock. We have a Bible classes, for all ages, we have about 30 classes now, don't we John? About 30 classes, classes for all ages, efficient teachers. And Wednesday night our.., we have our class on Tuesday night and on Wednesday night we have our general Bible class, and that class is for all ages. And we have of course a, on Thursday evening is the song rehearsal of our, our group. Now this Thursday because of this discussion, doctor, we are having to put off our special training class that is started doctrine in operation by our Minister of Education Brother Calvin Bowers sitting here, for about eight weeks I think this time. We have class number one, number two, and number three I think. If I could just explain the class for ministers. And of course we have other different classes. And that goes on for eight weeks. That's why I announced that for this, this Thursday night. On Friday night that is a special meeting. I heard Fred announce a Friday night? Those classes meet on Friday night instead of Thursday night? Oh, the leadership on Thursday night. Now that follows at 7... 1 want to thank you Doctor Kinley for having a... Thank you for having ___ read scripture that we know of our service, every minister is indeed a special guest at all, a honored guest at all of our services. Thank you very much. God bless every one of you.


DECEMBER 10, 1963: DEBATE WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST


CLOSING REMARKS BURBANK MITCHELL: Brother Perkins and myself would like to commend the audience by your mannerism and your conduct truly. I think all of us agree, the total congregation, I think we can agree that we have all been edified. All have been edified, learning something. I think it's been good. Would you agree with me on that?


AUDIENCE: Right.


BURBANK MITCHELL: It's been good. You heard the philosophies and doctrines and interpretations or whatever word you would choose to call it, expressed tonight. Is there any announcements for the institutes of.., Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research,


WOMAN: Announce our classes.


FRED ALLEN: I'll just do it. Our classes will be held Thursday night in this room at eight o'clock from eight to ten o'clock. And Thursday I would also let you know when Sunday, or where our Sunday class will be held. They have wanted to do ___ repair in this room, and we're gonna moved to another room. I'll let you know at that time. ___ ___, but we will be in this building. I do not know of any other, any other announcements.


BURBANK MITCHELL: This will conclude the debate. And let us all now rise and be dismissed.


DR. ROBERT HARRIS: Bow our heads and be dismissed. Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before his presence with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Savior be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever let us all say..... Halleluyah, Amen.


(END OF TAPE)