Carnal Mind Defined

CARNAL MIND DEFINED Lecture given by Dr. Kinley on December 25, 1973 in Los Angeles, California.

(Also called: THE CHRISTMAS TAPE)

CATALOG NUMBER: 73.1225 DATE: CHRISTMAS DAY, DECEMBER 25, 1973 LOCATION: DR. KINLEY'S APARTMENT, 3407 WEST 21ST STREET, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA

PRESENT ON TAPE: DR. HENRY C. KINLEY, FOUNDER AND DEAN, IDMR DR. SANDRA GIRAGOSIAN, PRESIDENT NYS IDMR DR. LAWRENCE PALMIERI, FORMER CHAIRMAN SYRACUSE BRANCH IDMR DR. DAVID ROSEN, LOS ANGELES BRANCH DR. FRED ALLEN, JR. (BRIEFLY APPEARS ON TAPE) DR. ROGER JACKSON DR. WALLACE RUSSELL (BRIEFLY APPEARS ON TAPE) DR. IRENE YOUNG BEN ... WALLACE HALL ONE UNIDENTIFIED INDIVIDUAL

RECORDED BY: LAWRENCE PALMIERI TRANSCRIBER: BURBANK DAVIES MITCHELL TRANSCRIPT FROM: 3 90 MINUTE AUDIO TAPES

TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: DR. KINLEY SUGGESTED THAT THE DISCUSSION BE RECORDED. DR. LAWRENCE PALMIERI RECORDED THIS 4 HOUR PLUS DISCUSSION ON 2 120 MINUTE AUDIO TAPES. SINCE 120 MINUTE CASSETTES BREAK SO EASILY AND ARE SO FRAGILE, THE DISUSSION WAS TRANSFERRED TO 3 90 MINUTE AUDIO CASSETTES. IN SO DOING THE DISCUSSION HAS BEEN OVERLAPPED TO SHOW THAT NOTHING HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE TAPING; THE OVERLAP HOWEVER HAS ONLY BEEN TRANSCRIBED ONCE.

TRANSCRIPT COMPLETED: MARCH 9, 1995 PROOFREADERS: GERALDINE ROTHSTEIN, MARY GROSS INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS COMMITTEE APPROVAL DATE: 4/95

___ : INDICATES INAUDIBLE SYLLABLE OR WORD ... : INDICATES WORD OR SENTENCE NOT FINISHED (CAPS): INDICATES TRANSCRIBER OBSERVATION

NOTE: At the time of this discussion the understanding among many of the IDMR membership was that when one received the Holy Spirit he/she had a righteous spirit and a satanic spirit in them, or a righteous spirit with a carnal mind and a spiritual mind in them. Burbank Mitchell's students were questioning him on this. Since Sandra Giragosian was going on a visit to Los Angeles, Burbank Mitchell asked her to ask Dr. Kinley a question for him, "Did Adam have a carnal mind in the garden," thinking that would resolve the question as to whether there was one or two spirits in a body or whether one had both a carnal mind and a spiritual mind. Dr. Kinley finally revealed the answer to the question regarding one or two spirits in a physical body some 40 weeks later in Los Angeles, California, on October 6, 1974. When Sandra Giragosian approached Dr. Kinley with the question on Christmas Day in his home, Dr. Kinley suggested that she record the discussion.

(TAPE 1 SIDE 1)

DR. KINLEY: ...I named twice in the book.

And then they have another type of mind, the subconscious mind. Now they said that the universal master mind and the subconscious mind are joined together. Now they didn't call themselves going by no pattern, and they're just going by what they think. And then they had another type of mind and that was the conscious mind. Now if you followed me, you would see I have three different types of mind there, which I wrote about in the book.

You've got the modern philosophical, psychological religious leaders and I'm saying that, after that, then another come up with another hypothesis or theory, and they said that God was Law and universal law, but that's all that He's going to be. Now, with Him that's the purpose of God. And, eh, it was a enviable law, you couldn't violate it. If you attempted to violate it you had consequences. Now here's what I mean by that, in simplification of the thought. If you went up on top of this building and jumped off out there, down there on the ground, and trying not to kill yourself because you would defy Spirit Law, universal law. And you can't violate it without a tragedy.

Now I had all of that to work with and to straighten out. So what I did I took the book. And I come right down by the book in explanation of both various different types of mind. I had quite a lot of, of, eh, of pages and a long, drawn out story so to speak to try to show you what it was really all about. Now this... Then I drawed out that God was not, Yahweh was not a universal mind, and consequently with that in mind, with that in mind, it couldn't be, it couldn't be no such thing as a subconscious mind.

Then we drop on down into a conscious mind. Well, it's just like saying subconscious as unconscious. And then conscious. Then the great and master influence, the universal master mind was.., subconscious and conscious mind, they were all hooked to one another, and that hypothesis, eh, they elaborated on. And that was what was being taught rather than a, a whole lot of carnal ordinances; and the new, modern, philosophical, psychological, and religious philosophy of the age, some thirty five to forty years ago. So, ah, as I have told you. And we wrote quite a few names in the book, as far as this great master-Mind they had other names for it but they all had the subconscious and the conscious. And it was just a growing thing that had its toll and effect on Catholicism and also Protestantism. And it got to be a great theory or hypothesis that reached academic proportions in all countries. Well, I had a job on my hands of explaining that. That.., now we're using God as, just the name God as Yahweh, course I know the Lord is used as Yahweh, see. But I'm saying it this way so I can impart an understanding.

Now I said that God was not mind at all. Instead of him being a Universal Master Mind, He was a Universal Master Spirit or a Universal Spirit. And to be the Master, of course, everything was in subjection, or subdued to him. Now, we didn't mean to deny the existence of mind, but mind is and was a product of Spirit, just like matter is a product of Spirit. Everything has its source of derivative from Spirit rather than from Mind. And to make God mind, and everything come from a mind... Now their way of pointing the thing out would be like this: like you saw an aeroplane and of course some man and a, a group of people worked that thing out in their mind in experimentation and development so's to say. But now, it wasn't like that. While a person, it's easier for him to think that it is like that than it is for him to think as the thing really is. You follow? So. Now, I tried to explain it in that book. And I wrote and drew circles and what not and if you've read the book too you'd recall that I did put it in and I used many illustrations from the Tabernacle, from the Temple, and from the migration, and from Noah's ark, and atom, a, a cell and what not, that I have tried to break it down, and then, ah, tried to bring it to the Tabernacle.

Now, ah, it's like this, when you don't have something to go by, something definite, something basic, these things are the fundamentals and the real essence of things, I'm talking about the principle, why then you're subject to think anything. And then what that does... Now what that does, it brings up a disagreement over here with this one, and then it brings up a disagreement over there with that one and the consequences are you have a multiplicity of people with different opinions about different things and no possibility of reconciliation or reaching a definite decided conclusion. And they think this, they think that they continue to go ahead on, you see, and through effort and, ah, study, see, of matter and whatever they think exists, they will someday reach a, an agreeable final conclusion. Well, that's just what our book is intended to be: to bring them to the place where they reach some basic, something fundamental and concrete, because we have taken everything in the Universe, and we have did it right down by that Pattern. And nothing can go haphazadous.

You can see the teaching of the, theory of Evolution. Then what they have there, they don't have anything basic and concrete to go from. See. You've got one thing over here that, well, let's say Man, you've got him going through various different stages of development, and, he's coming from first a cell and then maybe a fish, and then maybe a, a, a, a monkey and then a monkey to a gorilla and he keeps on in his development. And finally, bye, and bye, he came out to a cultured and refined man, see, as you have him as of today. But you see you don't have no way of proving nothing like that. Do you follow? So the, theory of Evolution, it can't stand up under no such pressure as that.

But, ah, the way we have went about it, it does stand up. And now as I have said it, and I'm going to come back to my root word, it is not mind. See. Yahweh, or God, or the Lord is not mind, but He is Spirit, and in that He is the source, He's the substance, from whence everything does come from, even the mind derives from Spirit. Everything in existence. Now the reason why I said that, a mind derives from Spirit. It's not mind. What they try to do is make mind and Spirit be one in the same, it's just not that, see. And, that's the reason why they say Universal Master Mind. See, they got matter coming from a Mind. He doesn't do that, see. Not so.

Now then, that brings us down to where we can talk about a carnal mind or a spiritual mind, and, not an unconscious mind. A person with an unconscious mind or a subconscious mind, as it is taught, you see, he wouldn't be able to do anything, see, he wouldn't have no control over it. And yet they hook one to the other. And they make the subconscious mind greater, see, and that it's just doing things without any way of doing it, and yet and still they make, try to make it act, see (you follow what I mean?) or make it be perfect. Now nobody's perfected in unconsciousness. You don't know what you're doin' and you don't have no idea of doin' it, then the next thing whatever it was that you could do, as if you were possessed of it at all, it wouldn't have no resemblance and no proof at all of anything basic. Am I far enough out on the limb? (LAUGHS) Am I out on the limb far enough?

Now I come back, you see, in bringing it this way. Now Yahweh said, `Now your thoughts is not my thoughts, neither is your ways, my ways.' Now I said that to say this or to show this: that mind was the product of Spirit. And it was not what I might say, just evil in it's beginning, you see. It was not just evil in the beginning. Now here's what I'm talking about when I say that. I'm puttin' Adam back there in the Garden of Eden. He was created. He understood what Yahweh was talkin' to him about not partaking of the fruit of the Tree, he understood it, see, and so he was not unconscious, while he didn't know, or didn't understand, or had no profound knowledge of Death and how to overcome it or anything of that kind. Well now all of that was foreordained and predestined to be, or it was a declaration of the end right from the beginning. And what it really is, would show that, ah, Adam, see, or the masculine, with the feminine embodied in him, as

David brought out, and I thought he did a pretty good job of it, see, in showing the masculine and feminine parts of the name Yahweh, and he took the Book too. And the, the reason why Adam is made like that was because, you see, is because Yahweh's in him. Now my thought is this, you see, that mind back there, see, he was innocent in his thoughts, not carnal, but innocent in his thoughts, the way he was created and put there in the Garden. In fact, I'll put it like this, see. if you take the third chapter of Luke and the last verse you will find that Adam was the son of Yahweh too.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Yeah. He was the son of Elohim.

DR. KINLEY: That's right. See, him being a son of Yahweh, when he was created he did not have a carnal mind, so he was innocent, he was pure, he was righteous, and he was holy. But now Yahweh has a.., Elohim has a purpose, and that purpose had to be manifested through Adam and fulfilled through His Son, Yahshua. Do you follow what I am talking about?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: So now, then the Apostle puts it like this, the first man Adam was of the earth earthy, fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians, but the second man Adam, was Elohim from heaven. Now that was that innocent part that was incarnated in that physical body. And when that woman was taken out of him, all of his devotion and love was for that woman. Are you following me now? And when she'd partaken of the fruit of the tree and gave it to him, there's where his carnal mind came in, now when I say carnal I mean condemned, condemnation, ah, in that he had disobeyed, which Yahshua the Messiah.., and yet, that had to be that way in order for Yahshua the Messiah, did died for his bride. It had to be reflected back there. So one son.., and this son over here, you see, are one in the same so's to speak. Now, then that means this. Somebody said, `Well then, was Yahshua the Messiah, was He carnal minded? No. I just got through telling you that Adam was not carnal minded in his creation. Do you follow?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: So then, if he were not carnal minded in his creation, now, I'll use these.., let's employ this term, to be carnal minded is Death. See, death could not occur or it couldn't happen until after that disobedience (do you understand what I mean?) or after he was made carnal. Now I said all of what I have said in order to show this in outer manifestation. You see, Yahweh gave Adam the law back there. (THE DOOR BELL RINGS) Ben will get it, come on Ben. Gave Adam the law back there. And now, Israel could say, `Well, if I had been back there,' as a lotta of people do say, `then I would not have did as he did.' Now here's what the difference is there. Hi there Reverend. How are you this morning?

DR. ALLEN: How yah doin'? DR. KINLEY: Oh, I'm... DR. ALLEN: Just fine? DR. KINLEY: Just fine. DR. ALLEN: How are you all doing this morning?

DR. KINLEY: Okay. She's back there somewhere. So now, but now the thing of it is, see, they are unaware and unconscious of the fact that Yahweh has a purpose and that He has declared the end from the beginning; and consequences are, it had to be demonstrated, so in, if He gave him a law telling him, you see, then he had the law, now listen, contained in ordinances which means that he had to offer up sacrifices, somebody had to, something had to die, you see, the innocent for the good. Do you understand what I mean? Get the point? So then Adam then, innocent, he was made to be Sin, or partake of that, you see, that we might be the righteousness of Yahweh in Him who did no sin neither was guile found in His mouth. Okay. Okay Freddy. Do you understand? Now what I call myself doin' is answering your question. You asked me about a mind this mornin', a carnal mind, and I call myself explaining, and I'm trying to break it down, you see, to such an extent that a person can understand what I'm talking about and showing him. Now is there any interrogation or questions?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So Adam's carnal mind came in after the transgression?

DR. KINLEY: That's correct, yes. Or we use the word carnal as synonymous to condemnation. That's why he run to the bushes, he hid himself, he.., or disobedience. You see? And yet all of `em, now let me say this, I'll carry you a little further down the road, see. Now when Yahweh made everything, created everything, created the Man and the Earth and the Heavens and everything, now see, people, they don't realize that He had no intentions whatsoever of it being eternally as it is, they, they don't realize that at all. Now since they don't realize that, see, they don't see how, see, just with a carnal mind, see, that He can create a Heaven and an Earth, which means in reality they don't really see how He created this one. And as I have explained there wasn't but one man that was up there that did see how He created, you see. You follow? See, there wasn't a whole bunch of people up there in that mountain and saw that vision of the creation, just Moses. But everybody is speculated with it, the ___. You understand what I am talking about? You got the astronomers, astrologists, so forth and so on, speculatin' with it, see. Now, if they actually knew what it was all about, why waste all of these billions of dollars tryin' to send somebody to the moon, and sendin' satellites to the other different planets? You understand? If they already knew then there wouldn't be no sense in goin' there. And by them doin' it is an open admission that we don't know. And they come right out and say that they don't know and they're tryin' to find out and trying to experiment.

So if you don't know, then this is what that brings about and if you just look at, well, just look at me settin' in this chair, I'll just show you the purpose of it, see, me settin' in this chair as a physical man, and I could say with a, a spiritual mind could understand how that was done and just demonstrate it and, you see, by Spirit embodied man would, would have the same shape and form: one spiritual and the other one physical. And yet I could see how it was done and understand too the power to create. You follow what I mean? But a carnal mind, see, he can't see how it could happen in the first place to say nothin' about it bein' a new Heaven and a new Earth, see, he can't see that. You, you follow what I mean? So there you are.

It would be hard for me to see how that with just a little fella' like myself, you see, could put, put such a great big somethin' outa here like this, you see, but it really isn't that way, you see, as He's working. We have is Yahweh in shape and form. And there is nothin' out there in the Universe, see, and what you see in shape and form in the person of Elohim, see, there isn't anything out there that isn't a part of this that's here, but what you see here is not all that exists. See. He's in limitations, too. You see? Do you understand what I'm talkin' about? Well, I'll make myself real clear. If I take a cup and go out there and dip some water out of the ocean, the water that's in the ocean, as big as the Pacific Ocean would be, see, there wouldn't be, I'm not talking about the created creatures, just talkin' about the water. See? Now then, see, there would be the same essence and substance and all would be in the cup that, or the ocean, or whatever it is. And I'm usin' the cup as compared to what you see in the spiritual embodiment in saying there wouldn't be anything in that, and it didn't take all of the water in the ocean to make up the cup. But there wouldn't be anything in the cup which in essence wouldn't be in the sum total of the overall. Now you understand me?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum. But you said He had limitations? DR. KINLEY: That is, actually He did, He's small, He's not all of the substance that exists. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Okay. You don't mean the total then? DR. KINLEY: That's right. He's not the total sum of, of everything. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: The total doesn't have limitations?

DR. KINLEY: Yes. That's right. See, but He is, He has every bit of the essence in Him that is out there but He is not all of it that takes to make up this little bit of shape and form.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: I understand.

DR. KINLEY: Now you understand. But there wouldn't be anything in that, you see, or, there wouldn't be anything in this out here, that's not in there. You follow? So that's it. Now it has to be that way. Now I'll use this term which I often do when I try to explain about the Garden of Eden. Now Adam was back there, he was a physical man, he would eat physical fruit, and eh, as we have, and since this is Christmas Day, we'll just bring this up. (LAUGHS) We'll just bring this one up since it's Christmas Day, twenty-fifth of December. See now, you wouldn't hardly see anybody out there plantin' anything unless it was wheat, you see, sweepin' away and throwin' something down and got snow out of there, in New York and places like that, don't make no kinda sense, no reason to it. Wouldn't see anybody out there breakin' up their fallow ground, or plowin', or somethin' other like that with a team of horses, or mules, or mechanical plow, motor driven vehicle. A farmer gettin' ready to plant, don't make no sense. You see what I am talkin' about? See, and if we just.., well I'll put it this way, see, all of these things that you see in that direction is the result of a depraved or carnal mind. Now for example... Now I think you, Larry, am I callin' your name right?

DR. PALMIERI: Oh, yeah.

DR. KINLEY: And eh, David and Sandra and Larry. I think all of you settin' here, and saw on this TV, these Roman Catholics, ___ ___ and what they went through, the saying of the Mass, which, which means this, see now they didn't know what they was doin' but they had mapped out a routine, ritualistic performance, and they followed that. That's a traditional thing. But now, just to show you how quick you can discern the difference as a product of a spiritual mind and a product of a carnal mind. You understand what I mean by that? A concept of a carnal mind or a concept of a spiritual mind. You can't find no where in nobody's Bible, where the Jews to whom the Law was given, and carnal ordinances too, I'm talkin' about, you can't find nowhere, where they ever went up to the temple, and in the Court of the men, and women, and the Gentiles, ate no Passover. That is not in that Bible. Never was there. Now look at the millions of people that have been murdered because they were not in obedience to the Roman doctrine and the philosophy taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

Now that carries you right back to this thought, John 8:44, that the Devil was a murderer right from the very beginning. And you look at it, and you look at it spread all around. And you look at the Judaism, apparent, ah, reality of it. Then he does have, as Paul said, `A show of will worship.' You understand what I am talkin' about? But in reality it's so far away from the truth and what it ought to be. Do you follow? And they don't see a thing. Roman Catholicism and Judaism, they're bad. And Protestantism. Now that's what makes you look like a jackass out here in the public. Lookin' like you're stupid (you understand) actin' a fool, see.

Then now, here's another thing that makes it all the worse. It would probably be all right if you picked it up from Billy Graham or some white man, you see, but you come along and picked it up from some little uneducated, see, (you understand what I mean?) insignificant and unknown, as for that matter, negro.

Now that's carrin' the thing too far, (LAUGHS) See. All you have to do is look at me go on down the street, the other side of the street, now you know, and you see I'm black, you see, now you know I can't know nothin', (LAUGHS) you see. Now that's the same way it was with Yahshua the Messiah. The world did not know Him. And if they had known Him, in both dispensations and ages, when He was back there with Moses, when He was over here, and when He was back there in the Garden as Adam, you see. If they had known then they wouldn't have crucified Him, you see. They didn't know that He was the Master. It's so great, until I have stood up and tried to break the mystery, trembled in my boots so as to speak, because I realize the reality of it. And it just takes somethin' besides your carnal minds, you see, to bring you into the conscious realization of it. So, now I hope, I hope I said something so it could be understood.

Now I'll say this here. Now Rod Channer from Hamilton, whom you traveled with, he comes to Springfield, when Mary and I go back there. And that poor boy is a preacher too. Now only one other person I heard say that, and that man then was back, way back there when we first, in the beginning, see, was debatin' and arguin' about water baptism. Well, I'll say this, I was arguing in Springfield, I was the only man in the world that was teachin' out of your Bible that Yahshua the Messiah, who come through the loins of Mary, was fulfillin', or healing or having it.., information like that. I was the only one in the world, I was the greatest in the world today, that is tellin' it that way. Well, as far as I know, see, Yahshua the Messiah was the only one (LAUGHS) that I can read about, that come from the Father, and was telling the thing like it was, see. Now He's the only one I knew, and He was the one that showed it to Moses and the rest of the prophets.

Now, I'll say in conclusion, now we have limitations and shortages. And we have corruption and pollution. And water, and DDT, and vegetation, kill the parasites, bugs, and the worms. And there's somethin' in the book about that too. But.., now that's vegetation and that's water, the air is contaminated and polluted that you breathe, the breath of life. And the religions you have all kinds of corruption and satanic influences in that and divisions. No possible way to reconcile nothing. And you also have, political corruption, universally so. Now I think I just about covered the water front there. I could use this statement and say that, so far as the world market is, you have a devaluation of currency here and yonder and having monetary problems with the, with the world markets. In other words, there isn't anything right or satisfactory, (CAR NOISES FROM OUTSIDE) which the Book does say would be as it is, it describes it like that. It was ___ ___. So, now, I said to you when I was ___ be, I said, I said any fool who can't see from here, see, that you're right down to the end of this Age. You can take it time wise, take it in my physical description. Everything has come down in the end of the ages. You can take it from there and see that you just don't have no long time to get nothin' straightened out. Now I brought that up on this account, see, of procrastination or pure negligence to go wherever Yahweh has placed His Spirit in those that do have some enlightenment, and one is the total source of it.

(TAPE 1 SIDE 2)

DR. KINLEY: And I do remember that even Yahshua, when He was down at Lazarus tomb, the shortest verse there is in the Bible, `Jesus wept,' Yahshua. And what He was doin' was being persecuted as you read that He was the Resurrection and the Life and had the power, see, through Yahweh being manifested in that body to raise that man from the dead. Now He was one that was raising the dead, after he was dead four days. Now there were some that had been dead four thousand years, see, and after His resurrection, now if you think Him raisin' Lazarus from the dead was such a stupendous and magmiracle thing, what about all the rest of the prophets, and Ezekiel spoke of dry bones in the valley and all that ___ and they rose from the dead after His resurrection, and went on into the city of Jerusalem, and manifested and showed themselves to many, which Paul said in the fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians the greater part of them saw `em was risen unto that day and then Paul added a couple of them with him, to whom he had to turned over to the Devil because they said the resurrection was already passed. So. I brought those things, I tried to bring them so that you could see that the way I do things, I fit 'em to the pattern of the tabernacle. You follow? Now you couldn't say that to go back to, to the beginning of what we would call the ___. And Yahweh said so Himself, that everything He created was good and very good, you see. So we can't, can say Adam was created a man, or a bad fella, or a man with a carnal mind. Do you understand?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: Now do you follow? And then another thing too, Paul puts it this way, he was not in the transgression but the woman. Now what he did, he did, the Messiah did just like he did. He was, Messiah was made to be sin for us, that we might be the righteousness of Yahweh in Him. He took the responsibility of the restoration and redemption through, of course Yahweh is not ___, that we might be the righteousness of Yahweh. It's great when you understand it but if you don't, you got a mess. But there is no problem when you really understand.

Now that brings me back to repeat what I said, Yahweh is not a Universal Mind, Master Mind, but He is a Spirit, and mind is a product of Spirit, just like everything else. It just repeats right of today and back there then, if they had known or understood. And Yahweh said `My thoughts,' apparent mind, see, in the, the thought that, `My thoughts are not your thoughts, and neither are my ways your ways.' You see everything that you have come from Him. Now it takes that and I think it's Thessalonians, `Let this same mind be in you that was in Yahshua the Messiah.' No. That ain't the way it is. Let this same spirit be in you. Well, what was the Spirit that was in Him? It was the Father manifested in the flesh. Without controversy or debate great is the Mystery of Righteousness, Yahweh was manifested in the flesh. And now we have some problems, we just have some problems, that's all. Now, when you try to bring these people up to perfection and an understanding, no, it's not a new problem, it's an old one, that they said to Yahshua the Messiah, when He said the Father is in Him, `When you see me you see the Father,' and because He said that He was the Son of Yahweh.

And they say `you're bragging, you've blasphemed because you have made yourself equal with Yahweh.' Now He said to them first, He said, `well, I showed you many good works of my Father, which one of them do you seek to stone me for?' Said, `We don't seek to stone you for any good works that you have done.' They knew He healed the sick and raised the dead. `We don't want to stone you for that, but because you've made yourself equal with Yahweh.' Now what they didn't realize as it was, that that was Yahweh that was manifested in that body. Now if they had realized that then they would have never would have crucified Him. You see? You follow? Now He was the Son of Yahweh. Now here you are through conversion, you see, you become a son of Yahweh which means, you see, you have the same thing in you that He had in Him. Now then you are no good, see, you've blasphemed, you see, you're unrighteous because you've testified to the Truth of the thing. Now you understand what you're talkin' about but the other fella doesn't. Now I brought that up because that's my problem. (LAUGHS) And it's yours, too.

Yes, those things are pretty deep and you're in there a long way when you prove sure enough, no foolin' now, when you're provin' by ___ in it's reality. I wouldn't mind, it wouldn't bother me one bit if it would help, and if it was the will of Yahweh for me to go right out there in the street, and dig a hole and put up a cross out there, and ___ thing, and just lay me down and hang me up there, see. I would gladly submit to the will of the Yahweh. But I'll tell you what you do have. The only thing you would have out there would just be another dead Negro hanging out there on the tree. And it wouldn't help it one bit because the sacrifice and the offering has already.., and the atonement had already been made. That's the reason why it's so bad when the Roman Catholic Church, was murderin' up all these millions of people. Do you... Now did I help it anyhow?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: I had a question. DR. KINLEY: All right. Shoot.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Now when you were talking about the Mass we watched yesterday there on TV, you said, that was a product of a carnal mind, saying that they had carnal minds then, but it's also depraved. So then all carnal minds are depraved minds?

DR. KINLEY: Well, you see, I tried to show the difference between an innocent mind and a carnal mind. Yes, to be carnal minded is death.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But...

DR. KINLEY: I have no way of fixin' that. You see. But a person that is innocent doesn't necessarily have to be carnal minded. Do you understand what I am talkin' about? Well, I'll put it this way. There was the Law back there. And John said, `there is a sin that is not unto death, I do not say that you should pray for it.' See. Now there was a Law back there. Now people did things that was against the Law, but they didn't know that it was.., they didn't just voluntarily do it just to be, ah, transgression of the Law, they didn't do that. But when they found out, see, then they stopped. And then they had a sacrifice that was supposed to be offered up for their ignorance. You understand? Now what I have did, I made a distinction between a carnal mind, you see, and an innocent person, innocent mind.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: A carnal mind then does what it does knowing that it's wrong?

DR. KINLEY: Well, I'll put it this way. A carnal mind is a condemned mind, and a condemned mind is Death. Now, let me explain what I'm talkin' about. I'll try to explain it this way, see. Now here he is doin' somethin', you see. You don't know whether it's right or wrong, you see. And the reason why you're doin' this, you see, is because the limitations of your knowledge and understanding. You see? Now if you didn't know, Yahweh knows that you don't know and therefore, even though it's wrong, then you're innocent in His sight. That's judgment there, see. But when you come to find out that the thing is wrong and then you continue, now that's where the problem comes in at. Then you're doin' somethin' that you know good and well is wrong, see. Now, let me tell you what that amounts to. Then that develops into what we might call a tradition. You see? Now we've held to this tradition so long and we've claimed that we were right, you see,

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: You had a delusion.

DR. KINLEY: That it's a.., and so Yahweh just sends you a strong delusion and makes you believe you're right, when you're really wrong, that you might be destroyed. You see? Now, do you understand me? Now that's the way it is with the Roman Catholic Church. That's the way it is with the Protestant churches. Now, I'll come back to this again, see. Now they don't have no pattern to go by, see. They don't know how to correlate the Garden of Eden with the Garden of Gethsemane when they read...

(END OF THE ORIGINAL 1ST 120 MINUTE AUDIO TAPE SIDE 1)

DR. KINLEY: ...Because said He was the son of Yahweh. And He said I've showed you many good works from My Father, and I can not do anything of My own self, it's the Father in Me that doeth the works and I showed you many good works from My Father. Do you follow?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: And they wanted to stone Him. He said, `for which one of these good works do you wanna stone me? I showed you many.' `We don't wanna stone you for the good work that you done.' And yet and still, you take Nicodemus' situation there. He said, `Master we know,' the Sanhedrin Council knows, see, `that you, see, come from Yahweh, and here's how we know it, cause no man can do the miracles which you do except Yahweh be with him.' But, you see, it's just got to work out according to the ___ ___. See what I mean?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Now let me see if I've got this straight. Adam was created with a spiritual mind.

DR. KINLEY: Yes. Now, wait just a minute. I wanna give you a passage in the book. How they're renewing in the Holy Spirit. I think that it's Titus 3:5.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Yes. SOMEONE: Where? DR. KINLEY: Titus 3:5. DR. ROSEN: Not by works of righteousness? DR. KINLEY: Uh, huh. DR. ROSEN: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us DR. KINLEY: Um hum. DR. ROSEN: by the washing of regeneration, DR. KINLEY: Um hum. DR. ROSEN: and the renewing of the Holy Ghost or Spirit. DR. KINLEY: That's right. See it's renewed by the Holy Spirit, by the Holy Spirit. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So at the Pentecost, we're back where Adam was before DR. KINLEY: That's true. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: the transgression? DR. KINLEY: That's true.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Now at the transgression, this is where I get confused. At the transgression he appears to be sin. He takes Eve's sin upon himself and willingly lay's down his life for her. Then he received that carnal mind because of that disobedience? But he hadn't...

DR. KINLEY: Yes. You see. Now let me show it to you this way. Now we are gonna go on yonder in order to show you. Now, Yahweh Elohim in creating, He created a great bunch of Satanic angels.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Right.

DR. KINLEY: You see? Now He cannot be condemned for doin' it. See. You follow? And there is nothin' nor no one, spiritual, physical, or otherwise, I'm trying to put it down in some terms

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: you can understand, that can say that, `Look, you are wrong here.' There ain't a damn thing, I mean there ain't nothin' they can do about it. You follow what I am talkin' about?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: There's no one to judge Him.

DR. KINLEY: That's correct. You follow? So then no one.., see, when He made the man as He made him, innocent like that, and it was His purpose for him to do what he had done and to receive a carnal mind. Now it makes it look like this. And this is the way it looks as of now. This is the way it looks. It looks like, if there'd be a Devil, he certainly does have the advantage, cause, you see, the world is in one heck of a mess.

And when we got ready to go overseas, and we asked some of these multimillionaires, and billionaires for some contribution, what they.., one of them said was that `Jesus when he was here, He didn't straighten it out.' See. `And now we don't expect you to straighten it out.' See. `So no, we ain't giving nothin', no contribution for it.' See. You follow? In other words, it's a hopeless case. You follow? Okay. Then, what happened then? We all.., what you do is just go to our own little group. And as, as a small and insig.., apparent insignificant as it appeared to be, that same year we held the convention in Beverly Hills, out there among the millionaires and the big shots, see, and the very best that money had to offer, in Beverly Hills in that big hotel. And then that same year we traveled almost around the world. And it takes all that, that little handful of folks, you see. And if you'd just walk up to some of `em and say to `em, say `Look, would you give so much money to, to that or the other.' Some of our own people that was involved, said, `I'm sorry, I would if I could, but I just don't have it.' (LAUGHS) But they got it. They had, they had, they did it. And it was so great until they.., right now, they don't realize what a great thing they have done, see. Do you follow what I am talkin' about? Around, close to seventy thousand dollars that year in nineteen seventy one by a little hand-full of people. Now, when I said all of that, I'm talkin' about their transportation, and a motel expense, and food, and everything in order to be together in the group, ya see. And then, in order to pay the fares, you see, from every whicha way, and pay the hotel expense, big hotel, little hotel over there. And then went across the seas in hotels. Airplane devices. A lot of people had never been up in the air, see, they don't know, you see. They had never felt like they had enough money to take an airplane ride from here to San Francisco and back or some place. You see what I mean? But here it is, we did it. What happened was.., the only explanation for it is Yahweh did it, you see. And He did it throughout.., and it was so great until we just, just had been an inconceivable fool, our minds (you see what I mean?) or to mortal consciousness, we'll put it that way, see. `I'm asking for somethin' like that, you know.' I wouldn't kick about it. Said, `You oughta know better than to ask for somethin' or other like that, you see, when there ain't but just a handful of us, and how do you expect us to pay the seventy thousand dollars?' see. Now, that would be at least a dollar a piece for everyone in the school (LAUGHS) and then some. They'd, now they'd cry right away and say, `Well, we can't.' You see what I mean? `You must be, man you must be out of your mind,' but nevertheless He did it.

When the old man told the, Sadat's representative so many in.., and they put us, put this question, point blank, point blank, `If we go to war against Israel,' which they had planned to do, `will we win?' Answer: `No.' Now, here's the situation. See, they didn't realize that a repetition had to come up in the end of this age, and see, right back over the same ground. See, they didn't know that. Now they're gonna drive the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: That's what they think.

DR. KINLEY: Yea, now they don't even know where they got the idea, see, because it was, it was costing them (LAUGHS) see. Now it's time for a repetition and they don't even know that, see. So now then that's what they're gonna do. And Yahweh done said through the prophet, said, it's be just like taking down the stars, you, if you'd to do ___ Israel.., bring down the stars, see. And then another thing they missed. They missed that Gideon, see, with about three hundred, you see. Oh, he had a whole gang more than that. And Yahweh said, `You got too many.' You see? (LAUGHS) You got too many here, see. So. See, they think, and the Egyptians they thought because they had more then the Jews, not realizin', you see, that, that it don't work like that, see. (LAUGHS) They just can't learn no sense, see. Satan has blinded their minds to such an extent until they just don't see through it, just don't understand it, see. Now what has happened, they, the Israelites has crossed the Suez Canal, see, and went right on toward Cairo, and are within shooting distance from Cairo. And just could blow up Israel, I mean blow up in Cairo the capitol at anytime. Now, they didn't plan on, I told 'em, see, they didn't plan on, see, just winnin' the war. They didn't plan on that. What they planned on doin' was, this was their, this was their plan, see, that they would jump across the Suez Canal with as many men as they possibly could and regain as much land as they could and then declare a cease fire. And repeat the land that they gave, you see. You follow?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: They didn't mean to go to war? DR. KINLEY: No. They meant to go to war. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: They wanted their own land back. DR. KINLEY: There, that see, that's what, but that is what they was after, see. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: They didn't expect Israel to come across the Suez. DR. KINLEY: No. They didn't expect all that (LAUGHS). DR. PALMIERI: This one? That's what Egypt had in mind? DR. KINLEY: Hmm? DR. PALMIERI: That's what the Arabs had in mind for this one, to regain the land

DR. KINLEY: Yea. That's what, that's what the war was all about. And they said they wanted, were on every inch of it too. See. See, when they went to war before, possibilities are that, Larry and... And you haven't heard it before? Well I'll tell you about it. In nineteen sixty seven, I told `em before I left Los Angeles and went to Springfield, Ohio. I was in Springfield when it broke out. I told 'em before I went. Didn't I tell you?

DR. DR. MARY GROSS: What?

DR. KINLEY: That there was going to be a war. Then when I get in Springfield I tell `em in Springfield. And it broke out just like I told you. And then I told 'em what was gonna happen, each day..

DR. DR. MARY GROSS: What would happen the next day. DR. KINLEY: What would happen the next day, it would been in the papers. Did I tell 'em Mary? DR. DR. MARY GROSS: Just like it was. DR. KINLEY: Now did it happen like I told 'em. DR. DR. MARY GROSS: Exactly.

DR. KINLEY: See, they think you don't know. (LAUGHS) Yeah. Said, `Well where did you go to school at?' I haven't, I haven't been to school. `Now, you don't be tryin' to sit here and tell me somethin' and I've been to school, and I got all my degrees and you, just a little idiot.' You see what I am talkin' about? And you say, and as they put it way back there years ago when I first went into the ministry, said, `You ain't dry up high in the ears yet.' (LAUGHS) Yeah, I tell you.

This is some work. This is some work. But the reality of it, and the education, I'm speaking of a Divine education not a carnal way of lookin' at it. Real quick, just in short, the purpose has been declared right from the very beginning. Now it takes somethin' like that to show that Yahweh is workin'. And if you can see that, you see, He's workin' everything after the counsel of His own will. Satan is no hinderance, he's an asset rather than a liability. And he's.., Satan is good. Somebody says, `now you mean to tell me that the Devil is good?' Why of course. Good for what? He's good for the purpose for which He created him. Wouldn't you say he's doin' a good job? (LAUGHS) I would. (LAUGHS) He's doin' a good job. (LAUGHS) Give him credit that he's doin' a good job. And got these people all confused, got `em all messed up, got 'em thinkin' that he is great, which he is in his way of being great. He's so great they can't overcome him, it takes Yahweh to do that.

DR. PALMIERI: Excuse me Doc? DR. KINLEY: Heh?

DR. PALMIERI: When you mentioned earlier that Rod Channer had said, as far as he knew you were the only one he knew, on the Earth, that, that ever taught that Yahshua was fulfilling when He came through the loins of the Virgin Mary.

DR. KINLEY: He meant in modern times, you see, or since the decease of the apostles.

DR. PALMIERI: Um hum. Well. When you, when you pick up ah, say, you know a Gideon Bible, anything with reference in it. And you read in, ah, in Matthew, where they say this was a fulfillment of Isaiah, `He should be born of a Virgin.' Somebody? The translator saw that obvious fulfillment from Isaiah where they put the footnote there, they footnote Isaiah seven:fourteen.

DR. KINLEY: Well, it was the Apostles that said that, it was not the translator. DR. PALMIERI: Okay.

DR. KINLEY: The translator just said and repeated what the Apostles said. Now that was not what I was talkin' about. What I was talkin' about was, see, we are way down here now from the apostles, you see, the Apostalic or the so called Christian Era. We're way down now see, close to the end. Now I haven't been on Earth too long, but for seventy-eight years, and to go on back and carry it on further back into the annals of history, like people writin' the commentaries on the Bible and so forth and so on. They don't say it that way. You got a library full of books out there and they all say that Jesus was instituting. Now, sure enough ___ ___, they all say that. Now that's what Rod Channer was talkin' about, as far as he knew in any of the books that he read, not talkin' about the Bible now, why then eh, eh, there was, there wasn't any one that he had read that, that taught that Messiah was fulfillin' instead of instituting.

DR. PALMIERI: There are, there are Christians that will say that He was fulfilling yet instituting at the same time. DR. KINLEY: Well you see, that's the same thing, see. DR. PALMIERI: Yeah, okay. DR. KINLEY: See they wouldn't be sayin' that if the Bible didn't say it. DR. PALMIERI: Okay. Yeah, right, okay.

DR. KINLEY: You see, that He was fulfillin'; in other words, everybody that picks up a Bible, don't make no difference who they are and what church they belong to, that picks up a Bible and reads a Bible, they're forced to say what He said but then on top of all that they say He's institutin' with their finger right on what He said in the Book. And that's why and that's where they get the observance of participation and indulgence in carnal ordinances as of today. They don't realize that He's fulfilling and moved `em out of the way, see. And all this, just like I said here a while ago, see, all this hog wash that they got up there in the Roman Catholic Church that we set up here and listened to last night, see, all of it, all that hog wash, Pope carryin' on and a whole bunch of stuff, there's nothin' in the annals of history, I'm speakin' from biblical history, that say's there ever was, you see, even the time is wrong, Mass taking the place of, ah, offering up of the Pascal lamb, and you read in Revelation there, twenty-fifth of December. Now who ever heard tell of any stupidity and ignorance like that. You understand what I am talkin' about, don't you? And then out there in front of a whole lotta people, just clownin', see. See Israel ate it in their homes, David am I right, never up in the temple.

DR. ROSEN: They don't eat it in the temple today.

DR. KINLEY: No, they didn't do it that way today, just out there clownin' and carryin' on. Now to someone that knows, ya see, they can see all of that stupidity. But somebody that don't know to them it's real and it shows humility, it shows gratitude. You see what I mean? To me I said stupidity and expanded

DR. PALMIERI: And what Doc?

DR. KINLEY: Expanded colossal ignorance. (LAUGHS) Yes, sir. And to anyone that knows, see they can see immediately. See now, that Passover, which they call the Mass, was celebrated on the fourteenth of Nisan or Abib, which it corresponds to our April, on the fourteenth. Now they're celebratin' Mass out there at any time, you see, and here it is, just to show you how hind part before it is, see, you follow now? Now He was.., that lamb was drawn out of the flock, a lamb of the first year, but the way they had it, as twenty-fifth of December at his birth, see, see, they was offerin', they was offerin' Him up at His birth, see. A celebration. That's bad. Well, you see, you wouldn't see all of them things, you see, if you didn't know what was in the scriptures, you wouldn't catch up with that. You see? What has to happen is this, now this is what, now this just simply must happen, and it just must happen this way, no other way, Yahweh will just simply have to send you somebody to point them things out to you. Now the way the Roman Catholic Church does, they have the Baltimore Catechism, and they have other catechisms. Now, they don't, they don't catch it like you read in the Bible. See. And they give you what they want you to have in the catechism, and you read that. And they'll ask a question like this, `When did God create the Heavens and Earth?' Now they got the answer. That's the question, in the catechism. Now the answer is: `In the beginning.' See. Now you go through with all them questions and answers, and then that's what you got is just a lot of stupidity and colossal ignorance, they don't know a thing about it. You see what I am talkin' about? And they keep you in the dark.

Now just like if they had had there, celebratin' the birth, see, and the offerin' up at the same time, you see, don't make sense. At least it oughta been a lamb of the first year. You, you followin' what I'm saying? Well, you see. Now here I come along, or maybe you or Sandy, and try to tell somebody that, and then they was born and raised in the Catholic Church. Now then you got yourself a fight. First place, you're not a priest, see. You're not a Cardinal, see. You're not a Jesuit priest, see. And you don't know, see, like Father so-and-so. `Anyhow, what church do you belong to?' `I belong to the Baptist Church.' `Well, the Baptist Church is way, where as the Roman Catholic Church is way back there, Christ founded it,' see. And your Baptist Church is founded by Roger Williams. You see? You say all its been 10 years. And now here you belong to the church that's founded by Roger Williams, the Baptist Church. Well, another one come along and say, `Well, I, I'm not a Baptist, I, I thank God I'm a Methodist.' You say, `Well, John Wesley founded yours.' See the point?

(TAPE 2 SIDE 1)

DR. KINLEY: And there you are. You don't know nothin', you see. Say, `we can trace the origin of ours right on back to Christ and Peter was the first Pope, see, and Linus, the second.' They wouldn't put John in there. Peter and John were buddies, but they, they wouldn't put John in there. Well sir, why don't you put John in there? Yahweh said it, Yahshua said it to `em, `Go in all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.' Just show you how the Devil will stand up and just tell a bare faced lie to people that ain't got no knowledge of the scriptures, you see. That's what John, he wasn't to go in all the world. He was made Bishop over the seven churches in Revelations. That was. In other words, Peter's scope was universal and John's was local. You see? He just had charge of the seven churches which is in Asia: Ephesus, Philadelphia, Pergamos, and Sardius, and, and you see. That's why he couldn't be the second Pope. Now who is Linus? Linus is a, is a convert under the Apostle Paul, or companion of the Apostle Paul. Now here they pick him up and put him in there and knocked Peter out. And here you don't know the difference, you see. And you swallow all that stuff. Whenever a decree is issued, it cannot be, according to their teaching, rescinded by an oncoming Pope or succeeding Pope. And here they got way down in here to Pope John the XXIII and go clear back in the first century. Now you got Peter, and Linus, Anacletus, and Clement. And Pope John said that Anacletus and Clement were one and the same and so he pulled him out. Now he wasn't suppose to do that. See? All they got is a bunch of lies.

Then Pope John said the papers of the Saints, they ain't right. How's that? (LAUGHS) And he said those that was baptized in the name of Philimenia, they didn't have no record of Philimenia ever bein' no saint, you see. So he throwed her out. Now here he's cuttin', he's cleanin' up the church, you see. Now he's cleanin' it up. Now the church, if I understood my Bible about it, it is the body of Yahshua, the Messiah. Now he's cleanin' up, he's cleaning up the Messiah. See, then after he gets to cleanin' up in there and then he's gonna invite the Protestants back in. See. Said, `what are you doin' there?' John. Said, `don't you know that some of the Cardinals and the priest, don't you know that the church of Christ is, Christ is building on Peter is right, and there ain't nothin' wrong with it. What do you mean holdin' an Ecumenical Council?' He said, `he's goin' to raise the windows and let some fresh air in.' Now you have over there in the seventeenth, eighteenth chapter of Revelations where Babylon had become the cage of every foul and unclean bird. See? And so he's goin' to raise the windows and let some fresh air in. Fulfillin' the prophecy. See? I tell you. It's bad. It's bad, really bad.

Now you see what they have been doin'. They run all around the world here and even since David you have second World War. Killed up six million Jews over there in Germany. Pope Pius the eleventh, had Cardinal Pacilli, who later become Pope Pius the twelfth, sign the concordant so that Hitler could be Chancellor of Germany. If it hadn't been for that, Pope Pius said he could not have been Chancellor of Germany. And then after he signed it war broke out. And then he killed up those six million Jews. Now then, let me talk with you about the war, and let you know about that war, I gotta lot of things, Pope Paul complains about it, and the reason why he knew ___ cause ___ ___ ___ ___. One of the things, that ah, display ___ ___ and stayed in that war, Pope Pius the twelfth didn't do anything to help the Jews. That's wrong. And when he complained about it, he did do somethin' about it, see, and they ___ ___ ___ most people just complained, and the man's has it right, he said they have documented evidence to prove that Pope Pius the twelfth knew every single thing. But everybody knows that he was... But that's the way it was... a bunch of, in fact of the ___ first murdered, but the world has got in such a bad shape now, Satan bein' divided against himself. See, how I'm doin' David? Satan being divided against himself, see. Now he's killing up the Roman Catholics, just like the Roman Catholic is killing them up.., because he's divided against himself, you see. You follow what I am talkin' about? See, you can't get by with that stuff no more, like he used to. Can't use the same excuses that he used to have that the church was justified in puttin' people to death, you see, because the Law had stated, Mosaic Law, that he that despised Moses Law died without mercy. And all them kinda things, you can't get by with that no more.

But now you see what we got now is this, I'm gonna have my pants off (LAUGHS) unraveled any minute, (LAUGHS) I'll be naked pretty soon, pull a string up outa here, draw the thing up here, you're gonna have, you're gonna have the ole man here raggedy, just as raggedy as a jaybird in whistlin' time. I see raveling stickin' up here, been stickin' up here for days on these pants, you understand,

DR. DR. MARY GROSS: And you pulled it and lost your underwear.

DR. KINLEY: And I pulled it and, no (LAUGHS) way down, and I pulled it back down, it's way down here in this sleeve. Now if I turn up here raggedy, see, you're goin' have to go and buy me another pair of pants. Yes, sir.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Doc, I don't understand the difference between carnal mind and the innocent mind that isn't enlightened yet. Now...

DR. KINLEY: Well you see a person that hasn't committed a sin or a crime isn't guilty until he's convicted or until he's informed. Now if you go to any court, see, you are innocent until you are proven guilty. Now in reality, now that's what the difference is. And I don't think I could hardly said it in any better perspective than that.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum. But then there's a category that's not righteousness but it's just innocent of the wrong doing, or innocent of, it just doesn't know...

DR. KINLEY: Well, let's say it like this. See now, I, I tried to explain that a while ago when I said this, that, see, the purpose, the purpose of Yahweh wasn't understood. And He kept it hid. And since it wasn't understood, and isn't too well understood as of today, although it's been revealed ever since Pentecost or made known. Now people did things that they ought not to have done. Now you got the same thing today. You've got people out here, see, that are doing things. And you got some right in the Roman Catholic Church, or in any church for that matter, some of 'em know better, and others don't, see. But Yahweh does. He's a just judge. He know's the difference. Now what you would do, you would drag it down to this place, see, where you would doubt the ability of Yahweh to judge between which is right and which is wrong. You follow what I mean now? Well, I'm sayin' this, you see. Now here's a person that has a testimony, see, that they love God, we'll put it that way, or Jesus Christ, and accept him as his personal savior, when in reality he does not, see.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: He knows better.

DR. KINLEY: That's correct, see. But the other fella out there he don't know it but Yahweh does. You followin' what I'm sayin'. And not only that if you take your Bible, open it to Matthew seven:twenty two.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Yeah. Hm, hm.

DR. KINLEY: And you will find that there is people there, they think, you see, and throw it up to you too. Let me give it to you on a little better scale than what I'm doin' here now. See, now, there in Matthew seven: twenty eight, said, `Go and baptize `em in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I said unto you, and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.' And they put water in it. He said baptize `em in the name.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Right.

DR. KINLEY: You see? Now what I am tryin' to get over to you is this, now here's these same people, you see, that's doin' these things that He didn't say to do, just like this, the Passover thing they had here, see.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: And they go around sayin' to do it.

DR. KINLEY: Yeah, they're, they're sayin'.., that's right, see. And not only challenging you, see, they're challenging Yahweh. Said, `haven't we done these things in your name. That's what you said to do. Now we've done it. Now we've done many wonderful things in your name.' You see? And then I will say unto you, `Depart from me ye that work iniquity, I never knew you.' You follow me about that thing?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: And you talking about Him raisin' sand with you, see. They wanna raise sand with Him because, you see, it's like this, if we doubt the judgment of Yahweh and that He knows, see, in whom iniquity and righteousness is in, even though a person be doin' something that was wrong, see, and yet innocent because he didn't know the difference, it wasn't revealed to him as of then. See? Well now Yahweh knows, you see; in other words what we don't wanna do, we do not want to sell Him short, see.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Right.

DR. KINLEY: And we don't wanna be in the favor of the other fella who seeks to justify and cover himself up knowin' within himself that he is wrong. You see what I'm talkin' about? For example. If you read that Matthew seven:twenty eight it doesn't say anything about baptizing anybody in water.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Right. DR. KINLEY: Said baptize `em in the name of the Father. And here they don't have even the name of the Father straight. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: (LAUGHS) Right.

DR. KINLEY: You see? And yet here they are down here contending with you. You see what I mean? Then, not only that, burial by baptism, they have sprinklin' as a sufficient mode of baptism, see. You follow?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum. So now they have, the one's who know they're doing wrong, have a carnal mind, which is satanic?

DR. KINLEY: Yes. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: The others are innocent carnal mind? No. Innocent.. DR. KINLEY: No. I didn't say that. (LAUGHS) DR. GIRAGOSIAN: They're innocent. And Yahweh knows that they don't know yet. DR. KINLEY: They still have a knowledge. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Uh, huh. But they haven't had illumination of knowledge there yet. DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So their minds are dark? DR. KINLEY: How's that? DR. GIRAGOSIAN: If they haven't received the illumination of Life in their minds

DR. KINLEY: Yes, but now here's what we want to consider in, when we are talking about these things. We wanna understand, you see, and you just can't go back now and condemn all of 'em, see, from Pentecost back with Adam. See, we can't do that. See, that mystery was hid within Yahweh, until it was revealed, you follow, until it was made known. It wasn't made known in other ages, see. So those people back there, even though they had the Law and all of those kinda things, in reality they didn't actually know the meaning of those things. You see?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Right.

DR. KINLEY: But they did know when they were told to do this, or that, or the other and they didn't do it, see, they knew that, but the meaning of it, that's what they did not know. Now I wanna make somethin' else real good and clear while I'm on that. See, we can use the word Law, see. Now, ah, you have several laws. Now I'm gonna give you some of the laws that we have. We have the Law contained in the ordinances, see, that's in the covenant that was given to Israel from Mount Sinai back there in the Wilderness, see. That's the Law contained in the ordinance. But now that's different from the Law of the Spirit of Life, see. Now, what happens, people confuse one with the other, see. Now then here's another law. See, we have our Civil Law, see. And even in some states, the law is different in some states than it is in others. You see. You follow what I am talkin' about? We change the letter and we say that the Civil Law is predicated, or based upon the Law in the Bible. You see? You follow what I'm talkin' about? And yet they have many facets to that, alibis, and excuses and loop holes. You follow what I'm talkin' about? And so that's what, that's what we're up against. See, But now what I do, now this is what I do, and this is the way I operate. I operate like this: that Yahweh is not a wise man, He is not an intelligent, or intelligent being; I say He is those things. You follow what I'm talkin about?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Yeah.

DR. KINLEY: Now if He is those things Himself, now what you or I would call knowledge, you see, doesn't necessarily have to be knowledge, it could be the heighth of stupidity with Him. And the weakness of Yahweh is greater than that of men. Just in.., say the thing really in short, I understand Him as being the Superior and the Supreme possessed with and is within Himself the sum total of everything. There's no way to deceive Him. There may be many things that you and I might question, you see, might not be able to see as, as of right now, but if you continue, that was, that's my contention, see, for saying a person oughta go to school. I know there have been times, when even me that have seen the vision, I didn't have at my command just all these many years, I didn't have at my command words, you see, that I could just jump up and explain to everybody at that time. See, I just have to wait. See. There's a lot of things... Do you understand what I'm talkin' about? And you might come along and ask me somethin' years ago, I, I just say, `well, thus and so forth and so on,' and you say, `Well, I don't see it.' Well, of course you wouldn't. The reason why you wouldn't is because it's been taught otherwise. You see? And that's all you have in mind is what you've been taught. And you haven't ever been taught to consider anything else other than what you have in mind. So then that makes it a problem. And I don't care what you say to that person, ya see, that has somethin' else, been taught somethin' else, and have somethin' else in mind, I don't care what you say to him. You can say `God said it,' or the `Devil said it,' or anybody said it, see. They don't understand it. You follow? Now, that's the way it is. It's hard. It's hard, now listen at what I'm saying, to get people to become conscious of the fact that Yahweh truthfully is inscrutable and is incomprehensible, and you just cannot take your little drawed up mind, see, and comprehend, see, such a Universal Greatness. It has to come by revelation. If it don't come by revelation, it just simply will not be there. Now how about that? (LAUGHS) It just won't be there, now that's all.

DR. DR. MARY GROSS: David. What was your question?

DR. ROSEN: I don't have a question. I wanted to ask something about Yahweh. About the so-called carnal mind, spiritual mind and see if I have it straight. And you know I wasn't here for the whole conversation, but you did bring up the fact about Adam being innocent before the transgression. And I never looked at it as being innocent but I can see what you are talking about, in the sense that he.., there was no Law telling him to do this or to do that other than what was, what Yahweh put in them, put it in him. And, he did by nature that which he was supposed to do but at the same time he knew that he wasn't supposed to eat what he was told not to eat of the tree that was in the midst of the Garden. And when he did he became carnal. Now. In other words condemnation was set in which was his death.

DR. KINLEY: Yes. Now, while you're on that David. That whole Age is called the... DR. ROSEN: Age of Conscience. DR. KINLEY: That's correct.

DR. ROSEN: Okay. So in other words, they did by, by their conscience in other words showing a Law right up here. Okay. Just imbued intelligence. An imbued Law rather than ordinances. Okay? Now is that not the same thing that Paul talks about in the second chapter of Romans where he talks about the nat.., the Gentiles did by natures the things contained in the Law

DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. ROSEN: which show the work of a Law written in their hearts and in their minds. DR. KINLEY: That's correct. DR. ROSEN: Not that it is but it shows that. DR. KINLEY: That's definitely that.

DR. ROSEN: Okay. Which would bring you to the point that that's where you're innocent. Your conscience excusing or condemning you.

DR. KINLEY: That's right.

DR. ROSEN: Okay. Now. You're carnal when you do something that your conscience tells you not to do, and the result of that is condemnation.

DR. KINLEY: That's right.

DR. ROSEN: Now if you are condemned in your mind, you know, you know that you did wrong when you shouldn't have done wrong, you transgressed your own cons.., you sinned, then you're satanic in that particular act. See. And that's right up here. You're not no longer innocent, you're satanic, carnal, and condemned. That's the way I understand it now.

DR. KINLEY: Now that's the way it is. DR. ROSEN: Okay, fine.

DR. KINLEY: Now the only thing I have to clarify what you just said, the only thing I have to clarify, is this, see, Adam was told not to partake of the fruit. Now rather that to say, that he knew better without being told, I can't say that. Now, that brings me around to say something to you pretty deep. And I'll tell you what that is. And I tried to bring it out. And that would, could carry me into what you just said. And say that you were sayin' it right and at the same time it wasn't like that because you have to go by the scriptures, meaning this: see, Moses seen and heard what Yahweh said to him and wrote in the book. Now if we say that he didn't have, you see, and he just did by Nature...

DR. ROSEN: Oh. Right. Right. DR. KINLEY: You see. DR. ROSEN: Yeah.

DR. KINLEY: You follow what I'm talkin' about, then we make Moses out a liar. You see? You follow? And yet, you see, what Moses heard could have been, and was, see, for example, let's put it like this, the whole story, Creation and all...

(END OF THE ORIGINAL 1ST 120 MINUTE AUDIO CASSETTE SIDE 2)

DR. KINLEY: Yahweh or God said, `Let there be light,' and there was light, so forth and so on, throughout the six days. Right? DR. ROSEN: Right. DR. KINLEY: Now I say he didn't say any such thing when He created. DR. ROSEN: Okay.

DR. KINLEY: See? Now then that makes it look like, do you see, come right back to the same thing that you said, that makes it look like I'm callin', ah, Moses a liar. See? But I'm sayin' this, that in the rerun of it, you see, He is sayin' that. See? Well, what happened before the rerun, when He did create? He just willed it to be so and it was, you see. He didn't need to say, `Let so and so, and so and so, be.' And it was. He just willed it to be that way, see. And He was, and so says the book, He will be whatever He wills to be, and so whatever He willed to be that's just what was. How about that? But now in order to show it to a man, and to understand a man, a man's understanding, then when He repeats the thing, He has to narrate it Himself, see. And that's why I say that it had to be narrated to Moses, he knew nothin' about it, he wasn't back there, that is in bodily shape and form, or in other words, he wasn't co-eternal or preexistent to... Now you follow what I'm talking about? It's a great thing, and it's wonderful to find that you're from man in which we just really can't do, whether, (LAUGHS) whether we want to admit it or not, see. Somebody's always talkin' about how smart they are, and they can say anythin' they wanna say, you see. Ah, no, as it's really so. You see? That's the reason why I try my best to get it over to people that Yahweh has to speak in an individual because a lot of times you don't have words at your command, you see, to explain to a person, you see, and Yahweh has to give you, then He even has to express `em, see, with all simplicity, and that by revelation. It's quite frequent the other person doesn't understand what you are talkin' about. But if they are willing.., see, and Yahweh is a discerner of the heart, you might not understand it today but maybe tomorrow, or some, some other time. You could then be out in the cornfield, but you heard it up here in the right place. Do you see what I'm talkin' about?

DR. ROSEN: Yeah. DR. KINLEY: That's, that's, to me that's the way it is. So. I'm listenin'.

DR. ROSEN: I think, ah, the, the problem with, ah, understanding the carnal mind, and the satanic mind and the spiritual mind, the mistake that has been made with that, not by Yahweh but by our own ignorance and concept, is this: we take a look, or we take for example the word carnal meaning natural, physical, earthly, temporal, and we say, `Well, if I take a jelly bean or if I have some toast in the morning, now that's carnal, that's natural, that's physical, and it's temporary, but I have to do it for this physical body.' And really, that's a misapplication of the word for this reason: you have to eat and you have to sleep, and that is a limitation that is put on you by Yahweh, and He is not gonna condemn you because you had some toast and because you went to sleep.

DR. KINLEY: Um hum. DR. ROSEN: He knows that you have to do that, DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. ROSEN: and you're doin' that by innocence. DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. ROSEN: in other words, by the limitation that has been put on you. DR. KINLEY: That's right.

DR. ROSEN: But at the same time, you don't have to eat to such an extent that you'll make a fool and a goat out of yourself, see, especially when you know better.

DR. KINLEY: That's right.

DR. ROSEN: Now, in other words, when you are condemned within your own conscience for doing something, then condemnation sets in and you're carnal and you are guilty for it within your own mind.

DR. KINLEY: That's right.

DR. ROSEN: See. Now. Instead of innocence being put in there, for example, an innocent mind, and then you have a satanic mind and a spiritual mind, I'm usin' words now, see, I could see that better than a carnal, satanic and righteous mind. In other words, you do by nature the things that you have to do, see, which you are innocent for, you're not, that's not so to speak, ah, put against you because you have to do them.

DR. KINLEY: You mean you're not guilty? DR. ROSEN: You're not guil.., I mean, right, you're not guilty for eating toast in the morning. DR. KINLEY: Um hum.

DR. ROSEN: See. Even though it is a natural thing but it's for a natural body. See. And I think we've made the mistake by saying that we have presumed that carnal and innocent, we made the mistake with that. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about our understanding. Okay. In other words, for example, you have a carnal mind and you say, `well, I gotta eat, well that's carnal.' Well, that's an innocent thing, that's not a thing that you get condemned for.

DR. KINLEY: Right.

DR. KINLEY: Now, take just what you just said there, now Yahweh said, `You can eat of all the fruits,' see. Do you follow what I am talkin' about? He said you can eat, see, He didn't condemn you for eatin', in fact, that's what He put the tree in the Garden for. And then, on top of all that, as we might bring this thing up to date, right now, see. See, the fruit that was on those trees back there in the Garden represented the fruit of the Spirit or the attributes, see, and you can freely partake, see, (LAUGHS) without condemnation. But now when you commence to making yourself, exclusively and individually Him, or making yourself Him in His totality, see. You follow what what I'm, you understand what I mean? I mean, if I say that I am Yahweh exclusively, by myself and alone, you are not but I am, I am Him, see. You follow what I am talkin' about? Then you see, then I've got some condemnation, I got some stupidity.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: That's Satan tries to do.

DR. KINLEY: That's correct. And that is what Satan does. Yahweh said, `I'll be what I will to be.' Satan said, `Well, I will be like it.' (LAUGHS) You see what I mean? Yahshua said that He had power to forgive sins on Earth, you see. And they didn't like that. So well, so He said take up your bed and walk, see. So he took up his bed and walked, see. The Pope, he says, well, that you might know that he has power to forgive sins on Earth, you see, that He gave him that power, see, and whomsoever sin he remits, he remits. `What are you doin'?' He's bein' like the Most High.

DR. ROSEN: As you brought out, there is none like Him.

DR. KINLEY: That's right. And Yahshua said, `No man goeth unto the Father but by me.' Pope said, `now don't be ___ the way it is,' says, `I have got power to put you in heaven,' and get, get you scriptures for it too. See, he said, `Whomsoever he binds on Earth will be bound in heaven.' People are afraid of excommunication out of the Roman Catholic Church on the account of that. But the book does not say whosoever, it says whatsoever. Then on top of all that, when it's properly understood, it isn't just a quote that's ___ ___, everybody, if you read the prayer, in other words, the disciples prayer said, `Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, give us this day our daily bread, forgive us our trespasses, ___ ___, we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, for thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory for ever.' And He didn't say, `Amen,' (LAUGHS) said, `Halleluyah.' Now, my point is this: now He goes on to explain. You read the rest of it and He goes on to explain: now if you folks don't forgive men their sins, if you don't forgive them, and what you have asked in what your prayer is, is to forgive me like I forgive them. And that puts some of us in a pretty bad, bad predicament, cause they wouldn't even, they wouldn't forgive 'em at all, see, hold it against you forever, see what I mean? Well then, then you see, your is there too, but you don't look at that, you bridge on over that, you see, and you haven't forgive the other person for the transgressions that they committed against you. He said, `if you don't forgive them neither will your heavenly Father forgive you.' See. So then you have power to forgive men their transgressions and their sins on Earth, and if you don't, then neither will your heavenly Father forgive you. But Satan, he tries to make somethin' out of it, see. (LAUGHS) He tried to show where he's the only one. (LAUGHS) You follow what I'm talkin' about? And he puts you in heaven, so me and Jesus, we're the only ones that you can go to the Father by. How 'bout that? (LAUGHS)

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: And Jesus is too busy, so try me. DR. ROSEN: He's not here... DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Well, the Catholics teach that Jesus is too busy, that's why you go to Mary. DR. KINLEY: Yeah. DR. ROSEN: Well Larry, what you say we mosey on over there. DR. KINLEY: Wonderful world. (LAUGHS) DR. ROSEN: For who?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Doc. What is being converted then as you come into an understanding, as you learn more and more about...

DR. KINLEY: Well, what is being converted is this. It's changed from a natural to a spiritual. Now let me clarify that. See now the Jew, he has the Law contained in the ordinances and to him, see, them and the orthodox is still over in Jerusalem. You follow?

(TAPE 2 SIDE 2)

DR. KINLEY: He didn't really understand the meaning of those things, just like I have explained that the fruit in the Garden of Eden was typical of the fruit of the Spirit, see, which a man or person could fully partake of without condemnation. You follow? But just don't partake of the fruit which is of the, on the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the midst of the Garden, if you please. Now a lotta people don't recognize that in the midst of the Garden, he didn't.., Adam actually, and Eve, neither one, didn't have no business in there, didn't have no business in there. Well somebody said, `yes he did.' Didn't Yahweh tell him not to eat of the fruit of the tree, didn't he tell to trim all the trees.' Yes, He did. But He said don't touch that one in the midst of the Garden, just don't bother..., then stay away from it. Don't, don't. That's the reason why He said, `Don't touch it.' See. If he was gonna have to trim it he was gonna have to touch it, you see. You see? So He told him not to touch it or to eat of it, stay away from around it, just, just in short. You see? Now what you've got here is this: you got a Most Holy Place, with the Ark of the Covenant that you mustn't touch, and you stay out of there lest you die, see. And you also have the Holy Place, now you can go around there, you see, see, and eat of the twelve loaves of bread, see. But when Joshua took them across the river Jordan the, the pot of manna was put in the Ark. Said, `Don't you go over there and touch, and that raisin' it up, and get no manna out of that Ark, if you do, it won't help you a bit.' See, you won't remember eatin' it. (LAUGHS) Do you see through what I mean? Well, that's the way it is. See, one thing fits right with the other, and it takes one thing to prove the other. And that's why we try our best to tell the people that it is a repetition over and over. The Ark had three stories, Noah's Ark; Tabernacle, three departments; temple, three departments; comin' up out of Egypt, three departments, see. See. Do you follow what I'm talkin about? See the atom, three departments; the cell, three departments, you see, and so forth and so on. Man, three departments, soul, body, and the spirit. You see? You see? Now look, they oughta be able to detect it somewhere along the line with all the various multiplicity of particles of matter, you oughta be able to catch it somewhere, and if you don't, see, it's not Yahweh's fault because He put 'em right there, that's what He put them there for, and that is irrefutable too. Somebody gonna say, `Well, as, you see that picture there, you talkin' about this work here bein' irrefutable.' Well heck man, that ain't, that ain't the real thing up there, that's just an illustration.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So would you take then the carnal mind, the natural mind, and a spiritual mind and say the carnal mind is the Outer Court, the natural is the Holy Place, and the spiritual...

DR. KINLEY: Well, carnal just means, it just means natural. I'll put it like this. If you take the, suppose you get it, you got a Bible there, the second chapter of first Corinthians and look at it. He said, `Now the Natural man, he don't understand the spiritual things.' see. Now that's prec..., it's precisely what is the matter with Israel as of today. I'm talkin' about the Orthodox Jew. See, he don't understand that the carnal ordinances fit with his carnal mind. (LAUGHS) See? Now when the carnal ordinance is gone, he's still got a carnal mind. You see?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: That.., you said the carnal mind is a condemned mind. DR. KINLEY: Well, yes it's con... DR. GIRAGOSIAN: He doesn't even know that...

DR. KINLEY: Well, see, that's the reason why he's offerin' up sacrifices. Now where he was condemned was for, was from the fall of Adam, death reigned from Adam to Moses. See? Yes, ma'am, that's definitely is what I said. Even over them that had not sinned. And, just to make that story, clear that story up, everybody was not back there in the Garden of Eden, just the two folks was back there. See? You see?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But we were all in them.

DR. KINLEY: But.., that's right, but Death reigned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, even over them that had not sinned, Romans five:fourteen and down. See, see? And by the disobedience of one man, see, were all made sinners. Just in short, in Adam all died. Has to be that way conclusively, so that in Yahshua the Messiah, we'll all be made alive. Now how about that? You see, I would say it this way, as I tried to say to you, I used the word innocent and guilty, or carnal and innocent, and tried to describe... How you take a cat and you put it down near the floor. And in the olden times, we used to have them old pot bellied heater stoves and all and mama, she would watch after the baby. And the baby see'd that fire in the stove gets, the stove gets hot and red and pretty, you know, (LAUGHS) crawls to it. And mama drag him back over this way. And there he come out, and don't get up there, you see. And he be lookin' around in time you catch mama out in the kitchen. And then this time he made it, see. He put his hand on it. Now mama don't have to tell him no more to keep your hand off of that. Mama hasn't a worry with him and tell him again, it's over with.

(SOMEONE ENTERS THE ROOM) DR. KINLEY: How you doin' there champ. VOICE: All right, alright. All right.

DR. KINLEY: Althea's all right now? Now you see what it means? Mama didn't have to tell him no more. But mama just happened to be out in the kitchen this time, see. Got up to that stove and put his hand on that danger. It's so beautiful, see. Mama didn't have to no more drag him back by the heels and tell him, `Don't touch that thing no more.' Follow what I mean? And if mama have to pick him up and get, get close to him (LAUGHS) cause he's afraid she's goin' rub him against that thing. Now that's what the difference is, see. Now that's a, a simplification in explanation. David you help me out with these words, will ya. (LAUGHS) Reduced to it's common denominator, lowest common denominator. (LAUGHS) In other words that's the best I can explain it, see. That's, that's, that's, that's, that fixed mama. That fixed the baby. Now in second chapter of second Corinthians there and about the eighth and ninth verse, when you check it out, that's what Paul was talkin' about, see. And he's quotin' Isaiah there too.

DR. ROSEN: It's unbelievable. DR. PALMIERI: You wanted the second chapter of second Corinthians or first Corinthians? DR. KINLEY: First Corinthians. Baby, is there any coffee in that pot? DR. DR. MARY GROSS: I think so. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect yet not the wisdom of this world.

DR. KINLEY: Hold it! No, hold it, Sandy. Hold it. Now we're readin', see, and you'll read right straight on and overlook the whole entire thing, see. When you just don't get the essence of what is being said. That's what makes this Bible so hard. `Howbeit we speak the wisdom of Yahweh among them which are perfect.' Now you have in, I think it's in that first chapter of the book, I ain't goin' to ask you to read it, see, he said, `Now we speak,' see, `the wisdom of Yahweh,' you see, `to them that understand.' You don't go out there tellin' somebody, the Gentiles, you see, that didn't know anything about it and went out there worshipin' idols, the sun, the moon, and the stars and every other kinda thing, and Jupiter and Venus and all that kinda thing, you don't go out there speakin' these deep esoteric things to them. But we speak the wisdom of Yahweh among them that are perfect (you see that?) perfect in understanding. Now that's lettin' the rope on out. Divine wisdom among them that are perfect in understanding. Now how do you get like that and what are you talkin' about? See, they understand the types, see, understand the difference between the shadow and the reality of it, the shadow is the Law, the reality is the perfection by the Holy Spirit which the shadow pointed to. You understand me? How did I do David?

DR. ROSEN: Fine.

DR. KINLEY: Did I do all right? Have to find out whether I'm doin' all right or not. Now, `Howbeit.' (LAUGHS) Now Corinthians, I think we should say this. They are Grecians, and being Grecians... Now, I wanna let you know this too. These epistles, none of them were written to just Grecians, or Gentiles, see, they were written up there to Corinth and Athens and other different places, to them Jews that was there that knew something about the Law. You understand? And then they were to instruct the Gentiles. I can read that if you want me to. You follow? A lotta people just pick it up and think you were writin' to the Grecians, the gentiles, you see, you don't do it that way, see. The Jew was to go and to take the message to the Gentiles. And if you look in the tenth chapter of Romans, the adoptions and the covenants, and everything was given to them, not to the Gentiles. They haven't sought no vision, they haven't heard no voice, you see. Yahweh hasn't revealed a thing to them. So now how could they know? See. So that's why he was ___. He gave it to the Jew, and then the Jew passed it on to the Gentile, you see. `Howbeit we speak the wisdom of Yahweh in a mystery to them that are, are perfect.' Read on.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Yet not the wisdom of this world.

DR. KINLEY: Now. Now you see that? Now you see, you've got a, a carnal wisdom, or a natural or a worldly wisdom, you see. Now please divide between the worldly wisdom, or just carnal wisdom and knowledge, see, or a worldly wisdom and Divine Wisdom, make some kinda distinction between them, you see, because there's as much difference between them as there is Day and Night. `Yet not the wisdom of this world.' All right read.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Nor the Princes of this world. DR. KINLEY: Nor of the Princes, or the smart people of the world. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: That come to naught.

DR. KINLEY: See, it don't, it comes to, to naught, it don't mean a thing, you see. And yet and still, people look at it as being tops, they got the thing just hind parts before. You follow? Alright, read on.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But we speak the wisdom of Yahweh. DR. KINLEY: But we speak the wisdom of Yahweh. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: In a mystery. DR. KINLEY: In a mystery. It is a mystery. All right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Even the hidden wisdom. DR. KINLEY: Even the hidden, the hidden wisdom, the hidden manna. You see? It's hidden. All right, read on. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Which Yahweh ordained before the world. DR. KINLEY: Now see, which ord.., Yahweh ordained before the ages to our glory. Read. Alright, read on. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Which none of the princes of this world knew.

DR. KINLEY: See, they didn't know. You see that now? Which none of the princes of this world... Now look here, while you're into that, just bear in mind now, that the Jew, he didn't know either. Though he was a king or a prince, he didn't know either. When he was offerin' up sacrifice, he didn't know, see. And that's why they still stickin' on to it now, see, those things. Do you see through what I am talkin' about? The Orthodox Jew, he, he, that's why he's hanging on to it. You see? See, he'd let it go if he thought, you know, if he knew that it pointed to somethin' greater than that, and that Yahweh took the natural thing to show the spiritual, or took, what you might say the literal things, or the physical things to show the spiritual. If he knew that, see, then he'd forget all about this other, see. And that's the reason why it's provoking in a sense. But somebody come down there talkin' about gettin' baptized in water and wash away your filthy sins and all like a that, you see. That man ought to be ashamed of himself. And we had to go into that. See, here's.., the beast was offered up on the altar. And all of those sacrifices that was offered upon the altar is culminated or it is fulfilled in Yahshua the Messiah. And all of it pointed to Him. There will be no more offering for sin, no more sacrifices for sin, we have no more need of the brazen altar, see, the lesson has been taught. You see? Okay.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: For had they known it they would not have crucified Yahshua.

DR. KINLEY: See, now if they'd know, they wouldn't have crucified Him. If they had just known they wouldn't have crucified Him. Now that brings me right back to my story, see. I've tried to tell these people and lead them on up into perfection of things, you see, and show them what each and every individual person is a complete description of Yahweh Elohim. Man is made, didn't say men, but man is made in the (LAUGHS) likeness and image, you see. Now if you wanna know somethin' about Him, look at yourself. Well, somebody said, `Well, look here, buster,' said now, ah, `it's like this, the woman was in the man.' Yeah, that's true, too. And Yahweh caused a deep sleep to fall upon him. Took the man ___, but here, wait a minute buster, this, this is what you got: a woman has some masculine chromosomes and hormones; and a man has some female in him. Now how about that? Well, sure is a nice day. (LAUGHS) Read on.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But as it is written, Eye has

DR. KINLEY: Now you see, now you see that. `But as it is written.' Now where was it written? Back there in the fifty second chapter of Isaiah. `But as it is written.' Anytime you see that it's written somewhere else, all you have to do, if you have a reference Bible, look at your reference and find out where it's written at. See. `But as it is written.' Paul is quotin' Isaiah back there. `Eyes have not seen.' Your eyes though they could see, have seen a physical man, they've seen physical beasts, and they've seen the sun, they've seen the moon, they've seen the stars they've seen all the, the natural thing. You see what I am talkin' about?

DR. ROSEN: Yes, sir.

DR. KINLEY: But eyes haven't seen it; ears haven't heard, and neither has it entered into the heart or mind of man, the thing that Yahweh's prepared for them that love Him. The Almighty Provider provided the Garden of Eden, see, but that was inadequate and insufficient to impart to him that those were symbolical of the attributes. Follow? And everything that you can see. And He give Man dominion over it, see. Inadequate and still insufficient. But He used those natural things to point to spiritual. That's why David said awhile ago, see, the natural man, see, he does things, you see, that's contained in, he just does by nature the things that are contained in the Law, see. To give a concrete example of it: now you know the Law wasn't given to Pharaoh, but when Abraham and Sarah was down there, see, and old Pharaoh he had his harem down there, his women down there, and Sarah was a very, very beautiful woman, see. And eh, Abraham got down there and he told Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister. She was, and wife too. (LAUGHS) And pharaoh took her and put her in his harem, see. Well, he just hadn't got around to her yet, and he found out that (LAUGHS), he found out that she was Pharaoh's, or that, that she was Abraham's wife. He said, `You come pretty near makin' me commit an awful sin, you take this woman and get out of here, see.' You follow? Now he was doin' by nature the things that was contained in the Law, and yet and still the Law wasn't even yet, it wasn't, it wasn't even given then. You follow? Oh, I tell you, it's wonderful. Read on.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Neither has entered into the heart of Man the things which Yahweh has prepared for them that love Him. DR. KINLEY: Them that love Him. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But Yahweh has revealed them DR. KINLEY: But Yahweh has revealed them unto us DR. GIRAGOSIAN: unto us by His spirit. DR. KINLEY: By His spirit. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: For the spirit searcheth all things.

DR. KINLEY: You see there? The Spirit searches all things, the meaning of everything, see. See. Every time you say water, it just doesn't always mean physical water. It's living water, see. You follow what I'm talkin' about? And just many things. When you say a lamb of Yahweh, it doesn't always mean a four footed beast. You see. You see what I mean? I tell you it's somethin' else. Read on.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: For what man knoweth the things of a man. DR. KINLEY: Now, what man knoweth the things of a man save the spirit that is in the man. All right read it. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: For what man knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man which is in him. DR. KINLEY: Um hum. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Even so the things of Yahweh knoweth no man DR. KINLEY: Um hum. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: but the Spirit of Yahweh.

DR. KINLEY: But this.., that's the reason why I say, ain't no need for you runnin' around here talkin' about all, what all you.., see, you're not all that smart,

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum. DR. KINLEY: but it's Yahweh that's... MAN: I forgot my bread. DR. KINLEY: You forgot what? MAN: I forgot my bread. DR. KINLEY: You forgot your bread? (LAUGHS) You mean you left it in the stove? MAN: No, I didn't put it in there yet. DR. KINLEY: Oh. Okay. MAN: I done, I done goofed up on it for a little while but I might be able to get it straightened out. DR. KINLEY: Okay. Okay, doc. Now you see. Repeat what you just said. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So the things of Yahweh knoweth no man, but the Spirit of Yahweh.

DR. KINLEY: See now, that's the reason why I say, all of these natural things that Yahweh has created includin' the sun, the moon, the stars, and men are out there worshipin', but they, they didn't realize, you see, what they pointed to. He just didn't know. And the times of that ignorance when he didn't know, Yahweh winked at, but now He commandeth all men everywhere to repent, cause you look at the natural to understand the spiritual. Like you look at the sun out there in the sky that illuminates the universe. And it's the Son of Yahweh illuminates the understanding. The sun rises and it sets. The Son, He rose and set down at the right hand of the Father.

DR. ROSEN: Doc, I'm gonna run along. DR. KINLEY: Have to go to work?

DR. ROSEN: No, no, no. Eric invited me over to, ah, to his house for some lunch and I told him I'd be there, so I don't wanna, you know, keep him waiting.

DR. KINLEY: Okay. Are you.., you gonna take him? DR. ROSEN: Well, I asked him but he'd rather stay here, which I don't blame him. I'd rather stay here, too. DR. KINLEY: (LAUGHS) I understand David. DR. ROSEN: I'll see you later. DR. KINLEY: Okay. DR. ROSEN: I'll see you around.

DR. KINLEY: Yeah, we're gonna have something to eat. (NOISE OF RATTLING SILVERWARE) Mary's got a buffet or kind of turkey or something. (LAUGHS) Ah. Now, ah, read on.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Now, we have received not the spirit of the world. DR. KINLEY: Now we have received not the spirit of the world but the Spirit of Wisdom. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Which is of Yahweh, that we might know the things that are prepared. DR. KINLEY: That we might know the things freely.. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Given to us of Yahweh. DR. KINLEY: Of Yahweh. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Which things also we speak DR. KINLEY: Which things also we speak. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Not in the words DR. KINLEY: Uh, uh. Not in words of man's, man's wisdom teaches. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But which the Holy Ghost teaches. DR. KINLEY: But which the Holy Ghost teaches. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

DR. KINLEY: Now you see that? You compare spiritual things with spiritual, see; and physical things with physical. You see? You get the meaning of, of the thing. Read on.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But the natural man.

DR. KINLEY: Uh, uh. Now you're in trouble. Now that's, that come back to that, that, that fella we was talking about a while ago, about that carnal mind and..

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Yeah. Yeah. DR. KINLEY: (LAUGHS) But the Natural man, (LAUGHS) what about him? DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Receiveth not the things DR. KINLEY: Now he just ain't goin' to have that. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Of the Spirit of Yahweh. DR. KINLEY: Cause they have, you talk like a fool. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Because they are foolishness unto him. DR. KINLEY: That's right. You see that now? DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Neither can he know them because they are DR. KINLEY: Now you see, there ain't no way, you can say, `see, see, see.' No, he just don't see. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: They are spiritually discerned. DR. KINLEY: Because they're discerned by the Holy Spirit or they are revealed by the Holy Spirit. Now you follow? Read on. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But he that is spiritual judges all things.

DR. KINLEY: Now you see that? Now you see that? Now there's where your problems are, see. But he that is spiritual, see. Now right now they got an accusation against me, see. Say, `I'll, well, he said that he was Yahweh incarnated in a body, and so are you, see.' Well now the natural man, he don't understand that, see. Then you can go back there and read that we're the offspring of Yahweh, see, but he don't wanna understand it. He thinks he's got somethin' to beat you over the head with, see. Now we are the sons of Yahweh. You see? Now since we're the sons having His Spirit in you, `what manner of love is this, the Father bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of Yahweh.' You see? Now in order to be a son of Yahweh we have to have the Holy Spirit in us. So we are... Now He went, prepared a place for us. Now the place that He prepared for us is where He was when He said that He was the Son of Yahweh, and He was goin' away to prepare a place. Now we're in that place, that is to say we are the sons with the Holy Spirit or the Father in us. Now how about that?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: He didn't have... DR. KINLEY: Now you see, they don't understand them kinda things. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: He didn't have any carnal mind though? DR. KINLEY: No. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So now with that same Spirit within us we don't have a carnal mind DR. KINLEY: No, you don't have a carnal mind. You understand what... DR. GIRAGOSIAN: once you have the Spirit DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: and knowledge. DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: and you do not have, DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: you do not have, you do not have Satan within you.

DR. KINLEY: Yes. That's right. You know now why He put the Sun out there. You know why He put the stars out there. You see? All you have to do is go in the Sanctuary and take a look.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So when Paul says, `I, I have a carnal mind.' What does Paul mean?

DR. KINLEY: When he spoke about a carnal mind. You see, you must remember that there was millions of those Jews back there, you see, to whom the mystery wasn't revealed.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Then he's speaking as though he were them. DR. KINLEY: That's correct. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: He was not speaking of himself? DR. KINLEY: No, no, no. Oh, no. He's not speaking of that. That's the reason why he said, `that they're revealed unto us.' DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum. DR. KINLEY: Us, who? The Jew? No, not all of 'em but the Apostles to show to them. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: What then were the two things warring in his members? DR. KINLEY: Yes. That's right. Well, you see, not that's it's carried on that war for the simple reason why that's what's goin' on in the other fella out there, see. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Uh, huh.

DR. KINLEY: Because see, he don't understand and that sets up a war. Now let's put it, let's get the warriors now together. He that is born after the flesh persecutes him that's born after the Spirit. Take a person out there with their carnal intelligence, just like I told you about `em, see, if they knew what was up in the sky, and all likea that, see, they wouldn't be sendin' somebody up there, and yet they're great scientists. You understand what I'm talkin' about?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: They don't know what's in the bottom of the ocean, you see. Lotta things they don't know about the Earth, you see. And research is conducted and carried on all the time, you see. But, the Holy Spirit in a man that Yahweh has put in him, if you try to tell him somethin' that he thinks he knows, far better than you do, you see, that, that is this one, you see, then, you see, you gotta fight and a dispute on your hands.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Then why is it that after we come into this teaching and begin to see some things we still have thoughts that are definitely, well, you could call them them evil?

DR. KINLEY: Well, you have to have, you have to have a, see, you, you have both. You see? DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Inside us? DR. KINLEY: Yes. You have to have both. You see? DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So then we do have carnal thoughts.

DR. KINLEY: Yes. No. Well, here's what I'm saying. See, I'm not usin' it as a depraved, see, I'm usin' it as a natural. See, you have to always be able to pick up the natural in order to show the spiritual, that's what you got there in Romans one:nineteen and twenty, see. You have to do that. That's why Yahweh created things natural as they are, includin' the Man, you see, was to show the spiritual. Now you have to think, see, Yahweh can think as a man thinks. You see what I am talkin' about?

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But Man can't think as Yahweh thinks. DR. KINLEY: That's right, see, unless it's revealed. You follow? Now we've come down to the place where we can see.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So then Yahweh would put some thoughts that would seem evil into our minds so that we understand by that physical the spiritual meaning of..,

DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: and we learn from it but it's not a part of us. DR. KINLEY: That is correct. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So we don't have a carnal mind in there fighting with the Spirit, DR. KINLEY: No. That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: but He puts the thoughts and things in there just to show us a contrast.

DR. KINLEY: See, you have to have somethin' to teach the other fella, that the things hasn't been revealed to him. It makes no difference how much education, you can be a Ph.D., or anything, you see, but he's still in the dark. He just doesn't understand, you see. Now just little things that almost a fool would be able to understand. Now let me give it to you. Now see if this doesn't shine, and yet, here we are down here with one of the biggest arguments goin': the name Yahweh, His Son, Yahshua. My name is Kinley. Now there's no sense in you comin' on along askin' me what my son's name, or my daughter's name is. And yet and still, you're around makin' a ass out of ourselves, see, tryin' to make it somethin' else, you understand what I am talkin' about, like Lord, God, and Jesus Christ; there's no relationship to that, see. You see what I mean? Now that's just as simple and people have blundered and stumbled over it for centuries, see. And you, until such time you come into the knowledge of it, it was alright.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Now, Doc. I've heard it said that there was iniquity in the Tabernacle and that's why the Sanctuary had to be cleansed but I don't see iniquity in there.

DR. KINLEY: Well, what is really meant there, it meant that the Atonement for sin and transgression was made, see, and also the intercession was made in that Tabernacle. Now let's say it around the other way so that we can just take it any, anyway you go.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: The Atonement couldn't be made if it weren't a holy place DR. KINLEY: That's correct, that's correct. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: But just take...

DR. KINLEY: Now you see that that Tabernacle was a type of His body. Now we said awhile ago that He was made to be sin for us that we might be the righteousness of Him.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So it appeared that it had to be cleansed? DR. KINLEY: Yeah, well it, He was made to be sin for us that we might be the righteousness. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: He took it upon Himself. DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: So then that had to be cleansed. DR. KINLEY: That's, that's right. Although, as you just stated, He was innocent, He was without sin. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: There's no iniquity in Him. DR. KINLEY: That's correct. DR. PALMIERI: How did you phrase that Doc? He was made to be what for us? DR. KINLEY: Made to be sin for us that we might be the righteousness of Yahweh in Him. DR. PALMIERI: Made to be sin? DR. KINLEY: That's right. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Sin.

DR. KINLEY: See, in other words, we'll put it this way. Adam the first son sinned, see. Now then that made Him, you see, have to take on, in Sonship, you see, you understand now,

DR. PALMIERI: Uh, uh. DR. KINLEY: the responsibility for the redemption of Man back to Him. DR. PALMIERI: Adam had to take on the responsibility? DR. KINLEY: No, Yahshua, who was the Son of Yahweh, just like Adam was. Now here's what I mean. DR. PALMIERI: Adam's pointing to Yahshua.

DR. KINLEY: Here's what I mean, see, Eve, was Adam's wife. Adam was not in the transgression, he just simply took that on. A sin. A disobedience. He just simply took it on for the love that he had for his wife. You follow?

DR. PALMIERI: Yup. DR. KINLEY: Knowing what Yahweh had said but willing to die. You see what I mean? DR. PALMIERI: Yep.

DR. KINLEY: Now that's the type and that's the shadow. Now whether you be a man or a woman, see, we constitute the Bride. So then He has to die for His Bride. He has to be a partaker of the fruit, the forbidden fruit of the tree. You understand? See. That what for? That He might redeem us back to Him. He had a perfect knowledge, He knew, He wasn't deceived, He wasn't fooled, see. It was the woman that was fooled, He wasn't fooled. And I'd have you to understand this too, Isaiah said, He was as a Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. That's the reason why He wasn't fooled. How about that? See. When you see and understand the purpose of Yahweh see, then these things clear up along the line. You see what I am talkin' about? You can see then that He purposed to be.., and He was slain before ever there was anything created, see, from the foundation of the world. You see? That is.., now somebody said, `Well, look, if God had known Adam was gonna sin in the Garden, see, why then He wouldn't have put him in there like that, He didn't know He was gonna sin.' Say, you're talkin' like a fool. Now for this reason why, see, all He had to do was just leave the Tree out. You see? He didn't have to put the Tree in the Garden, all He had to do was just leave it out and He wouldn't even have to say nothin' to the Man about it. You see what I'm talkin' about?

DR. PALMIERI: Uh,huh.

DR. KINLEY: But He knew what the man was gonna do, that's why He prepared the sacrifice before he did it, cause it was encouched in His purpose that it would be like that. Now here's what it looks like, even now. It looks like the Devil done won the war against Yahweh, see. He gets started in this, and everything you can think of, politics, and religion, and everything else, see. It's kind of like the little Jewish boy said to his parents. They was havin' a party, and so... It was durin' the depression. And eh, so.., his father was a business man, you know. And he would go home, you know, and his wife would say to him, `Well, how did things go today?' He said `Well,' he said, `Business has gone to Hell.' So, ah, when this party come up, you know, they was askin' the different ones, you know, kids and all, `Where'd they wannna go when they die?.' He said, `Well, I wanna go to Hell.'

(TAPE 3 SIDE 1)

DR. KINLEY: You understand. `What do you mean you wanna go to Hell? You know what you said?' He said, `Yes.'

(END OF SIDE 1 OF THE ORIGINAL 2ND 120 MINUTE AUDIO CASSETTE)

DR. KINLEY: This is the thing people don't understand. He declared the end from the beginning, and He works all things after the counsel of His own way. Now you listenin'? Now He didn't have to make no Devil, unless He wanted to. Well, somebody said, `Well, He didn't make him.' Now you know just as well as I do, the Devil didn't have the power to create his own self. See, and we are told that He created everything that was in existence. You see? Whether there be

(TAPE RECORDING IS INTERRUPTED, THEN CONTINUES)

DR. KINLEY: Pleasin' you, He's pleasin' hisself. You see? That's the way those things are. Now we have gotten right down to the, the place, I'll repeat, we've gotten right down to the place where it just looks like the, the thing has gone haywire. Well, that's the way it looked back there in the Garden of Eden, see. When the Devil, see, deceived Eve, and Adam partakes, it looks just like, looks like the purpose was off, see. Looked like the Devil done won the battle now. You see what I mean? See, he just didn't understand. And that's the way it looks down here now, see. It looks like politicians have gone to Hell, religions has gone to Hell. People are confused about everything; no body knows nothin' about what it's all about or what to do. You see. Crooked politicians and crooked preachers and, you see, and just crooks on top of crooks. They run everything in the ground, see. They want to pay you ten dollars a, a, a day, see, go out there and work for somebody and, ah, a hundred dollar, almost a hundred dollars a day in the hospital for instance, don't make no kinda sense. Do you see what I mean? Everything out of balance. Just looks like there ain't no way under the sun to straighten it out, but the Boss will straighten it out.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Yep.

DR. KINLEY: Just like the chaosis back there, see. He organized and He straightened everything out. He put the oil over here where it belongs and He put the water over here where... You see what I'm talkin' about? And He put the land over here. You see what I mean? And He put everything in it's proper place. It's organized, see. `What'd you say that for?' That you might see how the attributes is organized. You see? And it all works in harmony. You see what I mean? And He ain't about to lose no battle. You see what I mean? Now He hardened Pharaoh up to show His power. Now that's what's goin' on now. See, he's got these people thinkin', see, that everybody's wrong. Look how many of us that he has. Six hundred million, see, six hundred million can't be wrong. (LAUGHS) Told Abraham to look up and count the stars of heaven. He couldn't count. And He told him He could number his seed as the sands of the sea and as the stars of heaven. You see? You follow? Well, everybody's wrong, see. (LAUGHS) Now where, now where do you go from here, see. Well he said, `there was six hundred million of us, and six hundred million of us can't be wrong.' Yeah, but when the Dragon was cast out of heaven his tail drew a third part of the stars from heaven. Now how many is a third part of the stars from heaven? Is that as many as they got out there in the Roman Catholic Church, or over here in your church or the other fella's so-called church.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: More? DR. KINLEY: (LAUGHS) You follow? DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum.

DR. KINLEY: Yeah. And Yahweh is just simply inconceivablely great. He is great to such an extent until many people have learned it to such an extent until they just don't believe that He is dead. And when they say that, they just don't believe in God, they don't even know. And you look at a lot of the ___ that say what an atheist is. An atheist is one that doesn't believe in God. You see? Now the reality of the thing is, I don't believe in God. Then somebody will say that I was an atheist. And I don't believe in the Lord. And I don't believe in Jesus Christ. Now, now I'm truly a bad fella now. You follow? They don't know that those are erroneous names. They don't know. Now I did not say that I didn't believe in the supreme deity of this Universe, I did not say that, because I do. I do believe in Yahweh, and I do believe in His title which is Elohim and not God. I do believe in Yahshua and not in Jesus Christ. You follow? I mean, I am a confirmed believer. (LAUGHS) Yes, indeed. It's wonderful, it's wonderful. And it looks like it's a pretty hard thing and it's a pretty stiff and lonesome job for just a person to come along, and looks like He made it an utter impossibility in my case. Stupid, never went to school, then, black on top of that, see. And none of my folks ever amounted to anything, I mean as far as the records (you see what I'm talkin' about?) renown, see, (LAUGHS) parental lineages of gold. Was no great thing, I don't amount to nothin'. You see what I mean? And here I stand up here, black. Now you know good and well I ain't got no sense. That's just a matter of impossibility. And somebody said, `that Shine.'

DR. PALMIERI: Said what?

DR. KINLEY: Somebody said, `That shine,' over there talkin' about God sent him. That shine too. Can you imagine that? See, they call'd ya negro, they call ya black, and they called ya a shine, see. But, I'll say this, you never did see a shine shine like Yahshua the Messiah when He was up there in that mount and transfigured like there. You ain't never seen no black man shine like that and you ain't never seen no white man shine like that, outshined the noon day sun. Now how about that? (LAUGHS) Yes, indeed. Yes, siree. And man, I tell you, He's somethin' else. How many years we have been talking about, he's stupid. Man without the Holy Spirit is just like a natural brute beast, so says Peter. He don't know how bad it really is, and yet Yahweh's loves him to such an extent, John three: sixteen says that `He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, should have everlasting life.'

Now folks, I wanna tell you somethin'. I'm seventy-eight years old. The thirtieth of last September I was seventy-eight years old. And I worked hard all of my life up until nineteen fifty-seven. I worked in foundries and I worked in the insurance business, and I worked with a, even in private families. Those are about the only three jobs I ever had outside, that's what you'd call classified common labor. I tried to buy a home once. I failed. I didn't make the grade. After I had paid the money down and moved in the house and I wasn't there hardly a year before I was down in my back. And the doctor's couldn't find nothin'. And I was on the Industrial Commission, State of Ohio, and eventually, I lost the house. And I have never had nothin' in my poor life. Somebody said, `Yeah, well, that fits, if you amounted to anything, you would have somethin.' I don't know whether you remember the statement or not but Yahshua the Messiah said, `The foxes they have holes, and the birds, they have nests, but the Son of Man has not where to lay His head.' Now I haven't went around and tried to rob those people. See? And I have on my side, see, just one woman worth eighty million dollars. Name is Nellie B. West, West or something ___ ___. She had put money in the school. I won't allow her to give me a dime. Have a card, a Christmas card from her. I won't allow her to give me one dime. So she says, `Dr.Kinley has to have something, now what must I do?' She asked her chauffeur. He was a special friend of mine, even before we came to California, and he was chauffeurin', Jeff Fullen, whom David knows. And went down to Texas with her, see. She had a son, lives over here in the hills and owned a ranch down there in Texas, worth forty million. Young man, not even married. Then she has another older son, he was married. And he was worth forty million. I'm talkin' about what the reports are, I don't know. And he was a dope addict, her oldest son. And she called me. I wouldn't like this repeated around, see. She called me and she told me about it. She asked me would I, or could I help him? I said, `I think I can.' I never with these eyes, I've never seen the man. And there was another lady that was sittin' there, she was her attorney.

(RUSSELL ENTERS ROOM) DR. KINLEY: Hey there reverend. RUSSELL: How ya doin'? DR. KINLEY: How ya doin' there? RUSSELL: Fine. DR. KINLEY: Well that's what I call glorified.

RUSSELL: Well how about, I be the Christmas tree and, and let the Holy Spirit be the declaration, which you can't see. And.., what's the brother's name?

DR. PALMIERI: Larry DR. KINLEY: That's Russell there. (LAUGHS)

RUSSELL: Where's, where's the pen, I gotta do this thing right, I gotta do this thing right. June the 6th, I gotta do it right. (EVERYBODY LAUGHS) I done learned something I hope.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: You changing the seasons and the times.

RUSSELL: Boy, it tickled me that night, it tickled me that night, we were invited out to teach the gospel to a group of people out there from Englewood. They wanted, they wanted to hear the gospel, they wanted to hear what we had to say, so we went out and after about 10 minutes, there were about 7 people, dropped down to 3. Started the name, started the pattern, they flew. Then one ___ ___ fought it out, she found some, so Dr. ___ said, `well you're ___, you better pay attention, before she got, you ___ ___ pure coincidence, 11th chapter, `when you therefore come together it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.' She said, `turn to Matthew, go baptise in my name.' She said, and I said, `water.' I said, `no, read it again.' She said, `got the water there.' I said, `read it again, it says name.' She frowned, like it hit her with a ball. So she sat, after she read that she sat.

DR. KINLEY: Thanks Russell.

RUSSELL: And 2 others sat real close and you know and they listened. And ah, so then my nephew came and he sat. He said, `well I tell you what, now I been down there. Now they got a group down there. Now why I haven't been back, I don't know. They got a group down there, why I haven't been back, I don't know.' Then his wife come and asked him, `how come you haven't taken me?' Oh, this is before I married him now. I'm what you call just a.., she come and asked him, `how come you never taken me?' You know. `This is something else man.' She read that 3 times, `this is not to eat the Lord's Supper, Oh my goodness. So, our preacher always started 2 scriptures below that.' (EVERYBODY LAUGHS) `He started 2 scriptures below that. And he said, `baptise, buried him and immersed him.' She read over it quite a few times. `Yahshua, I like that name, that's how, I like that, Yahshua.' I already come. This was, this was a ___.

(THE RECORDER WAS TURNED OFF)

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: of Dean. What is a Dean, because we noticed for example at this last convention that we have a lot of Deans and the Deans' reports took up almost all of the business end of the, of the business meetings. Now, for the seventy-five convention we would like to, if possible get the people, the business officials there, two days earlier than the other people, and just have two days for business to be handled. But we sort of need a definition of what a dean is and maybe your thoughts about how the business meeting should be conducted with Deans' reports. Should we continue to have the Dean's get up and report?

DR. KINLEY: I think you'd better turn it off. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Okay. (LAUGHS)

(THE RECORDER WAS TURNED OFF. THE TURKEY BUFFET WAS EATEN. THE REMAINDER IS DURING THE EVENING AS PEOPLE WERE DROPPING IN AND DR. KINLEY WAS TALKING.)

DR. KINLEY: Get the dictionary and see what I'm askin'. See. You see? It just means a whole group of people, you see? ___ ___. Now, get me straight. See. Now, if I'm goin' to teach and I'm goin' to be out here contending that I know the Truth, I must possess the intellectual ability, divinely so, to show you the right thing about it. You see what I mean?

Now the supper or the Passover which they assembled together, the Mass, see, to celebrate. Now listen to what I am goin' to say. You take it from the twelfth chapter of Exodus, it was given to the Jew, Jew only, not the Gentile. And it was ate in their homes, never up in the church or in the congregation of the assembly. Have I got it right, Wallace? Have I got it right?

WALLACE HALL: Right.

DR. KINLEY: Have we got it right, children? Never was done that way. Now you see I must possess the ability to show you the Devil. See? You follow what I mean? Show you the errors in all what he thinks. You see the point? Now there never was no Gentile, from the time, the fourteenth of April, see, 1490 years before the birth as it is stated, there never was no Gentile ever invited to that. Now here they are out there, the Gentiles and all, see, and the ordinance that was imposed on the Jew, not the Gentile. You see? But not if I come along, and I straighten you out, and I tell you the Truth about it, see, you never heard that before, then what you think, since you've been raised in the thing, you think I'm wrong, you think I don't know what I'm talkin' about. And the Pope is a great man and I'm just a little nobody, you might say. You see what I mean? You follow? He looks like he's elected by the House of Cardinals, see. And you, you see, a little, some black too. See. You follow? `Where did you go to school at?' I never went to school, see. Ignorance is what I'm talkin' about, see. `Just a nobody and none of your folks ever amounted to nothin',' see. Now here I am, see, you see, goin' up against a man like that, see. But when you get right down to the Truth about it, see, the celebration of the Mass or the feast of the Passover or the Lord's Supper as it is called sometimes, they should be on the fourteenth of April, and Jews, for the Jews only.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: And in their homes.

DR. KINLEY: And in their homes. See. Now I don't care where you come from, you can either come from Hell or Heaven, see, you can't do nothin' with that. You see? But there are men that's ordained to that condemnation. See? And Yahshua the Messiah, said, `Now these signs shall follow them that believe, in my name they will cast out devils, ___ ___ ___ and things like that. Now these signs they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. These signs. You follow? Now here's the sign: in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. See? Not, not these signs, you see. You follow what I mean? Then somebody said this, said, `Well, look, don't you know that temple up there in Montreal,' said, `there was a Saint up there in that and many people are healed of all kinds of diseases, up there in Montreal.'

(SOMEONE RELOCATES MICHROPHONE)

Well, I'd like to tell you, give you some information, too. Don't you know that the disciples, before Yahshua the Messiah died, was sent out two-by-two, and Judas was one of them that was sent out there and he had his little bottle of oil, and he was puttin' (LAUGHS). Haven't you heard about that? (LAUGHS) How about that? He's out there healin' the sick...

MAN: Never thought about that. DR. KINLEY: Huh? MAN: Never thought about... DR. KINLEY: Yes, that's right. MAN: (VOICE IS MUFFLED) DR. KINLEY: (MUFFLED) WALLACE HALL: (MUFFLED) DR. KINLEY: I can't hear so good.

MAN: I said when you take a carnal minded person and they see the ministers out there saying a person shall be healed and this person is healed then that mind knows for a surety, that carnal mind, knows for a surety that he is sent by a Creator. See, but that's just like Judas back there in that age goin' around with the other brothers sent out healin'. But there was no salvation in that healin'.

DR. KINLEY: Yes. And not only that, whom He said they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. When He sent them out before He died that was physical sickness. When He sent them out after He died that was not physical sickness. They were healed of their stupidity and colossal ignorance of the purpose of God. They were resurrected even from the dead. Now how about that? Now that's what the difference is, but you see, since you're carnal, you see, you just bring it all the way through.

MAN: (MUFFLED) Did you hear what I said? DR. KINLEY: No I didn't. Come on in and sit down.

MAN: I say Judas wasn't with them after the resurrection to be healin' `em spiritually so, he was back there under the Law healing...

DR. KINLEY: That's right. And they didn't know the difference until the night of the Passover. And Judas had been up there and negotiated with the Sanhedrin Council and sold Him for thirty pieces of silver. See? So Yahshua the Messiah knew and the scriptures had to be fulfilled. So then, he took the thirty pieces of silver and carried them back and he said, `I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.' You couldn't put that money back in the purse. So then they took it and bought a place called the field of Blood to bury Judas in. And they told him, `Now you see to that.' Now he was lost that the scriptures might be fulfilled. Now you see, where we stand at now lookin' at Catholicism adopt and try all of the old covenant that was given to the Jews way back there, which is outmoded now, and tryin' to do that now, put on a show, you see what I'm talkin' about, capes, and all this kind of stuff to put on a show, see, and it appears magnificent to view, you see what I mean, to people. And you couldn't get `em out of that thing to save your life.

MAN: Yeah, you're right cause my mother went to midnight mass that they had. ___ ___ beauty. They already chased me out anyway when I started talking about this ___. So I guess, if __ ___ whatever they say, it's gonna have to take somebody like you or somebody else with an understanding because that mass was so, and I have to admit from the outward, physical, it did look beautiful.

DR. KINLEY: Yes, yes. Sure, it is. MAN: All of the robes of ceremonies and DR. KINLEY: Yes.

MAN: You know, and I guess, you know, like this morning my grandmother got up and said, `well, I said 2 rosaries,' and I got 2 more to save so you know me and mother Mary is getting together to have a talk and I said, `well, ___' She thinks she has powers

DR. KINLEY: Yes. MAN: ___ the pope, and ah DR. KINLEY: And then... in the songs they sing afterwards back there in Rhode Island, sure they are nice.

DR. JACKSON: Like John said, `He looked upon that woman with great admiration. She got to him and then she looked so good.

DR. KINLEY: And He told him, `come up here,' and after he got up there where he could see, ah, ah (LAUGHS) she didn't look so hot (LAUGHS) sittin' upon that scarlet colored beast. No, sir.

MAN: That was beautiful what Freddy brought out too, about the name of the ___, her name, her name was not Mary, you understand, and they and what they're worshipping back there at the Roman Catholic Church, they're worshipping Mary just like they're taking God and Jesus and Christ, they got a false name there and even when it come down to the mother, they're just 100% wrong.

MAN: What was her name? MAN: Got the wrong name, the wrong thing is going on. MAN: What was her name? DR. JACKSON: Mariam MAN: Mariam. PERSON: Same name Mariam, as Aaron's sister.

DR. JACKSON: And on top of that, you see, she's a Jew or a Hebrew and there never was no good blood between them and you read in the 18th Chapter of Acts there that Caesar put out the, that all Jews, not some of them, but all Jews, depart from Rome. And that's why Priscilla and Aquilla was there, see. Now if Peter had been in Rome as they say, then that means, he was a Jew, he had to get out of there too. Now they have turned around and taken a Jew and set her up as an idol now. Also, Peter. That Devil is somethin' else, ain't he?

DR. KINLEY: You see, that's the reason, that's the reason why, you see, that Yahweh just has, there ain't no need of arguein' about it, Yahweh just has to be in somebody, see. And then if He's not, you can't see to save your soul. Just ain't goin' to save it. And now, then they have.., what they'll say is that's blasphemy, when you say that. And yet and still, it's in Him we live and we move and we have our being, Acts the 17th Chapter says this, `And we are the offspring.' Just like we are the offspring from our earthly parents, see, we are the offspring of Yahweh. And then consequently, He is our Heavenly Father. You follow? I said heavenly Father. Now our earthly parents, see, your father's named Jackson, and mine is named Kinley. See? Well, that's an earthly parental name. But if you take the High Priest and his bonnet up there, he had `Holiness Unto Yahweh,' not to the Pope or not to the priest, you see. Now Pope means papa. And then he had Yahshua's name in there too. See. You follow? Now Yahshua come and fulfilled all those carnal ordinances and there was only imposed on jews. What's that for? So instead of us gettin' out here clownin' like they do in the Roman Catholic Church, you can get up and preach the Gospel. Just like the Gospel was preached to Abraham and Abraham believed, and that was accounted to him for righteousness. You follow? You don't have nothin' in the almanac to say nothing about a Bible, where Yahweh or God or the Lord or Jesus Christ ever said anything about baptizing the Gentiles in physical water. It ain't, it ain't in the almanac. You see that now? Then somebody said, `Oh, look here, 10th chapter of Acts of the Apostles, I'll prove that to you.' Don't, now wait a minute. Don't get excited, Peter is the one that said that, I said it's Yahweh (LAUGHS) And then if you look over in the 11th chapter you find out that Peter withdrew that. You see? Now how about that? Yes.

I have a full time job tryin' to teach the people the truth. And I'm looked upon as a Dean. Well, I'll say one thing for myself, I can pat my own, pat myself on the back and maybe there won't be no objections to this: I'm the Champion of the Idiots. See, I don't know no better than believe what Yahweh said (LAUGHS), I don't know no better. So that makes me the Champ. How about that? Yes, sir. And since I recognize it's the Father in me then that makes me the Champ of the Intellectuals, too. And I can tell you everything they do wrong in the Roman Catholic Church. So I'll tell you one, a bad one in the Roman Catholic Church. Now, I got the Roman Catholic books right down here, you don't need to start no stuff with me. Imprimatured, too, and censored by the Roman Catholics. Their own stuff. And if you take our book and look at it. I know you've seen it Sandra, and the possibilities are you have too, baby doll and the rest of you, see, we thanked them, see, (LAUGHS) cause for allowin' us to use their books (LAUGHS) to write these things out, otherwise we could have been sued, see, and put in jail, and fined. A great big fine.

DR. JACKSON: You see, they didn't know you would have taken and beat them to death with it.

DR. KINLEY: That's right. And then had the guts to send it to the Vatican. How about that? See folks, I tell ya', now this is what it amounts to. This is what it amounts to. Yahweh does exist. And all the folks that accept Him as the Father and believed in Him and His Son, we have become the Sons of Yahweh, every last one; not the sons of Rome or of the Vatican or of the Pope, but of Yahweh. But now I will say this, what you have in Rome and them satanic spirits incarnated in physical bodies and in these other different Protestants and orthodox in Judaism, it's got to be, there's no way out of it. You wouldn't have no way of proving that the satanic spirits was cast out of heaven and down to Earth. You wouldn't have no way of proving that, see, if it wasn't that they were there. See, you can't say they're there when they're not, see. Now just like I told you, you see, the Jew, now listen at what I am sayin', you take the 12th chapter of Exodus, I know right where chapter and verse and all in the book, see, now those carnal ordinances of the Passover was celebrated in their homes down in the land of Egypt. And not up in the congregation of the assembly, see. Now I got a Roman Catholic Bible out there, imprimatured by different Cardinals and all and it says the same thing in on that it says in the other. You see? You follow? Now here's what's wrong, you see, them people that belong to the Roman Catholic Church, what they have is somethin' like the Baltimore Catechism or the Advance or the Adult, you see, Catechism, and they just read that. See, they don't make no study of no Bible, like you and I would do. They don't know what's in the Bible, don't know nothin' about it. And a lotta the priests that's out there, they don't know what they talking about. What they're tryin' to do is please the, the pope. They don't know.

MAN: At least ___ all looking John and Luke said and they have a little son and they go back to preaching that mystery and mass and nothing about the pope. ___ ___ from Paul's statement there's somebody else across the road ___ ___ ___ , in other words if you marry ___ ___ ___ you're really scared, you're gonna pay attention. You know what I'm saying.

DR. KINLEY: That's right.

MAN: You think if you're paying attention you ___ up any way ___ ___. It's bor.., that's why I, it's so boring and you go to mass and you have nothing. I don't, I don't know why they go. That's why some of you, some of you young people and of the people that look at, they don't see anything, they don't see ___ being saved. You just go over there and you hear the gospel and you wonder, they never come with questions, and you wonder what is saved by going there. You know. You don't go to mass, I stopped going to mass or something, going to confession, going to everything (DOORBELL RINGS) and they wonder why you stopped going. I don't see nothing saying to me about going there. Yet they go over there, obey all the Catholic rules, not eating meat on Fridays, Fridays until they took that away away, and when he said, when I started going to class, that eating meat on Friday must have been ___ ___. Whereever the law was at. And they must have taken it away for some reason or another. I don't know if you people ...

DR. KINLEY: Yes. See we've got the whole water front covered. All the way down you can just trace Him right step at a time. That's, that's we hear the truth, that's what we have to do in order to convince the world that we do know what we're talkin' about. Now when I got to the Vatican down there.

(ANOTHER PERSON ENTERS THE ROOM.)

DR. KINLEY: C'mon in baby. Now when I got to the Vatican down there... How you feel? WOMAN: Okay. (TAPE 3 SIDE 2)

DR. KINLEY: When I got to the Vatican down there, Cardinal Grimillion, when Mitch, your, your, your Dean in New York, went to roll the, that Moses chart down in the Vatican, he said, `I see you all use the true Hebrew names of the Father and the Son.' There's nothin' else that you'd use but it'd make him confess that he had it, it was judgment. Do you follow? Now, I'll show you the errors that they make. They'll say this: `God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.' Now who in the world is the Lord? Now how about that? If it's God, He's the Father, and if it's God, He's the Son, and if it's God, and He's the Holy Ghost, then who is the Lord? (LAUGHS) You see? And how in the world can the Lord, see, have a son and his name be Jesus Christ and his Father's named the Lord.

MAN: (MUFFLED) DR. KINLEY: Huh? MAN: (MUFFLED)

DR. KINLEY: No. That's right. (LAUGHS) That's right. See. Now she come up here, Roger, see. And they'll say, `what's your, what's your father's name?' You say `Jackson.' And see, before you was even born your name was Jackson, see. See the point? Now if you'd come up here and say your name is James, you see, then there's gonna be some, some, some further discussion about that, you see. (LAUGHS) Now my name's Kinley. Don't be sendin' no bills up here in the name of Jackson for Kinley to pay. (LAUGHS) Well it don't make no difference. Yes, it does make a difference too. (LAUGHS) Yes, sir, that mailman could get that letter back. Oh, he's, he's got that in the wrong box.

DR. JACKSON: You'd go down the street tryin' to catch him too. DR. KINLEY: Yes, yes, you'd better take it on back to the Post Office.

MAN: Doc, ___ ___ ___ ___, what, what, what was confirm, what's confirmation. I got confirmed, ___ ___ whether I got confirmed.

DR. KINLEY: What's what? MAN: Confirmation. DR. KINLEY: Confirmation? MAN: In the Catholic Church. DR. KINLEY: It means to be confirmed or permanently established in a thing. MAN: (MUFFLED) DR. KINLEY: Huh? MAN: (OFF MICROPHONE)

DR. KINLEY: Oh, yes, you have to have the works. Shut up Roger. (LAUGHS) Well, shut up before you do say something. (LAUGHS) That ___ said to me, the black robe, he said, `I ain't sayin' nothing.' He said, `Well then shut up before you do say something.' (LAUGHS) Well, I guess I make just about as a good a comedian as I do a preacher. But when we get down to business with it though, I ain't kiddin' with you Sandy. And a lot of 'em you know, that since the Roman Catholics have killed so many people and murdered so many people, they think, you know, that, and here I am here with God, you see, and all the time and I never go no place by myself, even when I come down to your house, Sister Mary lookin' out the window, she's lookin' out the window. So. Now, they have letters, threaten ___ and he'll kill you. You see what I mean? You have better than ___ ___. Kill me for what? I never done nothin' to none of `em, I just told the truth on `em, and they don't want me to do that. Now, when we was in Hollywood, I'll tell you this, when we first come here, why we got to talkin' about the Pope, well we did it back in Ohio, I've always done that. I have to show you what the difference

between right and wrong is, see. So, the Catholics come and set up in the meeting, and they went out the meeting and wrote cardinals and all, Dr. Gross was down there, and wrote them letters and said, `God endorsed Pope John the 23rd, but he just tolerates you.' Okay. I wrote the book. Sent it to the Vatican. And told them when the Pope would die and he wouldn't live, Pope John. See, God just tolerated me but endorsed him, see. And I said he would die, Pope John the 23rd, 32 and 133 in our book, I said he would die before June the 6th. I did give him a break, I was nice enough to do that. I said he was in hell, heaven, or purgatory. (LAUGHS) But he just wouldn't be there, see.

DR. JACKSON: He wouldn't see another Pentecost.

DR. KINLEY: That's right. He wanted to live to see another Pentecost and he had 550 million Roman Catholics prayin' that he would live to see another Pentecost.

DR. JACKSON: Plus all these other folks.

DR. KINLEY: That's right. That's right. And here I am by myself sayin' he won't live to see.., and he died on the third day of June. And I tell you he wouldn't live to the 6th day, see.

MAN: Did you get any answer back on that?

DR. KINLEY: Oh, no you don't get no answers back from nothin' like that. See now the reason why we didn't get no answer, see, we said in the book, now this is what we said in the book, see, we asked them for their opinion or their comments on it and we stated right in the book that what ever they said, see, good, bad or indifferent, negative or positive, see, we would print it in, just like they said it in the next edition. And they didn't want that stuff in there on them pages. (LAUGHS) That's why we didn't get no hearin', see.

MAN: (MUFFLED) DR. KINLEY: Huh? MAN: ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ if you were ___ ___ ___ ___

DR. KINLEY: Well they've said every.., they've, they've said, they've called me everything. They've called me Satan. They've said everything about me. They're supposed to do that. If they didn't do that then there would be somethin' wrong with each other. (LAUGHS) They called Messiah, said He was Beelzebub or the Devil, or Beelzebub and all like that, you see. That's right. So what, what do you expect, that somebody runnin' around pattin' you on the back and you cussin' `em out and carryin' on, then they pattin' you on the back, you cussin' `em out and you tellin' on `em. The Devil don't you doin' nuttin' like that.

DR. JACKSON: That's why when you were, went to the Vatican then, Pope Paul was around there hidin'. Now you was the last man he wanted to see. Wrote that book like that and then going over there to see him, too.

DR. KINLEY: That's right. You see, a lot of people wouldn't have the nerve to go in there, see, like that, knowin' they've killed millions upon top of millions of people and have a book right out there, I think David would know something about it, see, I said the statement that they killed millions of people, they have tried to justify themselves and, and ___ ___. And now, knowing that, I walked right up, right in the Vatican. And they had the book there long bef.., they had the book there.., Pope John the 23rd had it, now Pope Paul. Then Pope Paul, when he was made a pope, we sent him the book and the Holy Name Bible, and knowing they've killed many millions of people. Wallace?

DR. ROSEN: He went home. DR. KINLEY: He went home?

DR. ROSEN: Yeah, he said that, it was too busy to give you a haircut, so as soon as you get a break, he'll try to give you a haircut, all you gotta do is call him and ___ ___ ___ ___ ___.

DR. KINLEY: So he said. And now here I am. They're supposed to be huntin' me up, bump me off. And here I, I don't know no better than to go right down there, right in the Vatican, see. And he's hidin'. See he didn't want, they don't want none of the stuff that's pulled off on Pope John the 23rd., he didn't want none of that stuff on him.

DR. JACKSON: He was lookin' at you on TV. DR. KINLEY: Yes. He's lookin' at me. You're on "Candid Camera", he's hidden the cameras around. DR. JACKSON: That's right. MAN: He never took it off. DR. KINLEY: Huh? MAN: He never did ___ ___ ___. DR. KINLEY: Yes, saw me on hidden camera, see. MAN: He saw you, but you couldn't see him. DR. KINLEY: How's that? MAN: Did you ever see Pope Paul?

DR. KINLEY: No. I'm, I've never seen him in, in the flesh at all, never have. But he saw me on, in, on the cameras in the Vatican, see, but he wouldn't give us an audience. See, he didn't want nothing to do with me.

DR. JACKSON: You couldn't blame him, could you?

DR. KINLEY: Well. Yeah, I blame him in a ___, you see. If he wanted to fool ___ real good he oughta at least have sent for me, he would at least have some kinda a coverup. You see, he don't have no coverup now, see. So that's the way those things go. And that's the way it really is. That's the way I live. I ain't afraid of nobody and if I die, it don't mean a thing to me, I ain't afraid of nobody, or nothing like that. I could put it in some different terminology that, that probably it works better the way I said. (LAUGHS) I say that you are God in, in a body. You are, all of you are. `Well,' he said, `now wait a minute, now, now, now, now just, just a minute now, just a minute, minute now.' `What is God?' Said, `God is Spirit.' Well, you're soul, body, and spirit. Now, do you see what I am talkin' about? Now you gotta have, be either one or the other one, good or bad spirit, wouldn't you say, and it's in Him you live and move and have your being, and you are the offspring of Him. No wonder we are called the Sons of Yahweh. You see what I mean? So we just have to know what we're talkin' about and understand what we're talkin' about. Yes, it's sure somethin' else. Well, I guess, maybe you, have you got any more questions now? (LAUGHS)

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Not right now. DR. KINLEY: (LAUGHS) Not right now? Got to think some more, huh. DR. GIRAGOSIAN: (LAUGHS) DR. KINLEY: Thank you David. Have to think some more. DR. JACKSON: Well, I'm gonna get down... DR. KINLEY: See, you won't hardly have to play the things... DR. GIRAGOSIAN: Um hum. DR. JACKSON: I'll see you after awhile. DR. KINLEY: Okay. Aileen home today? DR. JACKSON: No, she had to work. DR. KINLEY: She had to work? Are you, are you comin' back by? DR. JACKSON: You need anything while I'm out? DR. KINLEY: Let's see. Ah, yes. I need some ___ and correctol. MAN: ___ ___ ___ ___ DR. KINLEY: Correctol. DR. JACKSON: You got some correctols in there. I bought 60 of `em, there had to be 60. You got some in there. DR. KINLEY: Have I got some in there? DR. JACKSON: Yes, I bought ___.

(THE DISCUSSION IS COMPLETED AND THE GROUP IS BREAKING UP: SIMULTANEOUS CONVERSATION OCCURS AS FOLLOWS:)

DR. KINLEY: No, no you didn't ___. I got, bring me, bring me one of these.

(DOOR CLOSES)

DR. KINLEY: Yes, sir. DR. ROSEN: One of these? Are you gonna rip `em out? DR. KINLEY: Yes.

DR. GIRAGOSIAN: There's one place I'd like to go here, Irene. One place I'd like to go is to the Smiths, there's a sewing place at the Superscope Library? I'd like to see what they have. I can't figure out if I want one of these or if it's...

(END OF SIDE 2 OF THE 2ND 120 MINUTE ORIGINAL AUDIO TAPE.)