Questions and Answers with Dr. Henry Clifford Kinley

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DENNIS VOLPE, ALPHONSIA MACLIN, ETAL

(1975)


Discussion already in progress


DR. KINLEY: . . . sent down from heaven. Now then Moses he didn’t know Elohim, he didn’t have the Law given to him, and the thing that was with him was the Holy Spirit. So now I’m saying this: Now you see the Law was given by the Holy Spirit. And if the Law was given by the Holy Spirit so also wasn’t the prophecy, and it has to be there to confirm the other, and neither of ‘em are just the unction of men, and if it were that way then you wouldn't have any way to prove the existence of Yahweh. But now since both the law and the prophecy are Yahweh’s witnesses... Now Moses, (I heard you speak of Abraham) now Moses wrote of Abraham, and he said this, that, and the other about Abraham, and that Abraham believed Yahweh. He said what Yahweh had said to him, and was looking right at it; he saw it in the vision. And when Elohim talked to him direct about it, Moses I’m talking about, at the burning bush and so forth and so on. And then afterwards he saw Him... He said, "I am the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and your father Amram, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." That’s what He said. Now he didn’t see them he just told about it. But when the time come for Yahweh to carry him back through the generations and the offspring of this that, and the other, then he saw those individuals and heard the communications and the contact that Yahweh made. Did you understand that?


Dennis: Yes I follow.


Dr. Kinley: Now here’s what I’m talking about. Now Abraham, just like Moses, operated under the influence of the Holy Spirit just like Moses and the prophets.


Dennis: Yes I see that


Dr. Kinley: So now what we’re saying here is, when we say to the law, you must remember that Abraham and the creation and everything else come in after the giving of the law. So then that brought everything under the influence of the Holy Spirit. So therefore the Law and the Prophecy, both of them were given by the Holy Spirit, so one is a witness to the other, and the fulfillment and so forth and so on. In other words, all of it is conducted by the Holy Spirit, and not by, and not by a satanic or a unrighteous or. . .


Dennis: Right, okay.

Dr. Kinley: Now will you buy that?


Dennis: I will buy that a hundred percent and that’s... Doc what I was trying to say... Let me just say this to you, unless you're finished. Are you finished?


Dr. Kinley: I’m finished, yeah.


Dennis: This is what we were talking about: Rip was wondering... See I made the statement that a carnal mind doesn’t necessarily mean that a person is a satanic spirit but they have a carnal mind. Now he wanted me to go in the book and try to give him examples of it. Now what I was looking at was this. Before Pentecost nobody had that permanent dwelling of Ho... Well I don't wanna say nobody, most of the people…


Dr. Kinley: Now, now, just wait just a minute let me clarify that.

Dennis: Go ‘head.


Dr. Kinley: See now when they, whenever they're... That’s the thing that I’ve always tried to show even in this dispensation and age. Now you see when the Holy Spirit is given in this dispensation and age it comes to abide with you forever. But now down in the other dispensations and ages whatever the assignment or appointment was with certain individuals to carry out certain things, well then when that was complete then the Holy Spirit left them after that.


Dennis: Yes I understand that.


[Phone rings, it's answered; conversation not recorded.]


Dr. Kinley: You see what I was trying to tell you was this: Everything that was done, even from the foundation of the world, was in cooperation with the purpose of Yahweh. And it’s, it isn’t always understood by everybody because they don't realize and recognize that Moses is writing the pedigrees and genealogies of those who were before him. And it wasn’t something that was handed down, although they were before Moses which we know, and it wasn’t no writing about it. We know that Enoch was the 7th from Adam and he prophesied, but nobody ever wrote nothing but Moses, that’s the reason why you have to resort to Moses. So then if the law, which all of what we’re talking about was under the law, why then even the vision of the creation, why then you would have to accept it that it wasn’t motivated by a carnal mind, it was Yahshua the Messiah. Now that’s why I said that.


Rip: Now the other thing that you was talking about, I understand now what you’re saying, that all of the Law and the Prophets was under the influence of the Holy Spirit.


Dr. Kinley: That’s correct


Rip: and the genealogies and pedigrees that Moses received is under the influence of the Holy Spirit.


Dr. Kinley: That’s correct

Rip: And what we were talking about specifically was, as to whether there was two spirits…

Dr. Kinley: Two what?


Rip: two spirits in a body, righteous and unrighteous, that was the first question that I posed. And the second one was, what is the line of demarcation between a satanic spirit and a carnal mind?


Dr. Kinley: Well, I’ll tell you what you have there is a very polytechnical thing to answer in such a way that it would be clear to express almost to anybody that is so that they can understand and draw a line of demarcation, because everybody expresses their own opinions and their thoughts about things, and now it's up to you to discern, if you have the Holy Spirit, to discern whether or not what is said is unction by the Holy Spirit, and it would have to be determined by the Law and the Prophecy, which were given by the Holy Spirit under that dispensation. Now under the present dispensation, under the present dispensation [Noise in background]… That goat, that Billy goat is always in the background, and it’s a ---- from it.


Rip: (Laughs)


Dr. Kinley: Now the point is that under this present dispensation the Holy Spirit’s poured out, and it comes to abide with you forever. Now the Holy Spirit and the satanic spirit does not get along to well in a physical body, so then you cast out those spirits, then you're occupied by the Holy Spirit. That body’s occupied by the Holy Spirit, sealed and preserved and there's no way at all that Satan can get into it, I mean in its reality. Now there's somebody out here playing like they is, well it’s up to you to discern them negative spirits. And if you're not real you can’t discern one because it opposes them that… Rip do you want some Bible for what I'm talking about?


Rip: Yes I’d appreciate it.

Dr. Kinley: I think it’s Corinthians 11:14, I believe it is.

Rip: 2nd Corinthians 11:14.

Dr. Kinley: That’s correct.

Rip: But what I do that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them that desire. . .

Dr. Kinley: Now are you sure that’s what you. . .

Luther: That's not 11:15 of 2nd Corinthians.


Rip: I’m reading down to it. I just didn’t wanna pick it up there I’m reading down into it. I’ll just pick it up a couple of verses. But that what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion. . .


Dr. Kinley: See now that's what we’re talking about. That’s really on the subject. All right read on.


Rip: that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we are. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Yahshua, and no marvel for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light


Dr. Kinley: or a minister of the gospel. Now did you see that? Now read on, we ain't through with that.


Rip: therefore it is no great things if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness whose end shall be according to their works.


Dr. Kinley: Now my point is this, now he’s writing to the Corinthians. Now the Jews were up there at Corinth, and left in charge, and they were to preach the gospel to the Greeks and to the Gentiles. Preach it to ‘em, preach the true gospel to everybody, with the Holy Spirit. But I’m telling you about the situation up at Corinth is no different than the conditions elsewhere. And what you’ll have to do, and be on the look out is for Satan himself cast out of heaven, and let’s say his ministers too, and all of ‘em are posing and transformed as the successors to the Apostles... You see what I’m talking about?


Rip: Yes. And that was right among the people that were preaching the gospel...

Dr. Kinley: That’s right. Now you got, you’re in 2nd Corinthians there aren’t you?

Rip: Right


Dr. Kinley: Now the whole subject primarily is on just what you’re talking about. Now we’ll look at it from another different angle. Now the true Apostles, now turn to the 4th Chapter of that same epistle.


Dennis: Did I miss anything?

Luther: Naw, he went into Corinthians, 2nd Corinthians the 11th Chapter…

Dennis: but what was the point he was making there?

Rip: Satan’s, Satan’s ministers were transformed into angels of light. . .

Dr. Kinley: and Satan himself, and into the Apostle of Yahshua the Messiah.

Rip: And this is the full…


Dr. Kinley: And that contention was that they were successors to the Apostles, and they’re posing every which a way as that. Now what we’re talking about is you, if you have the Holy Spirit, see you have to discern them satanic spirits incarnated into those physical bodies. You follow what I’m talking about?


Dennis: Yes I do Doc…

Dr. Kinley: Now but we ain’t gone have no two spirits!

Dennis: in a body


Dr. Kinley: because for this reason why. See it takes the Holy Spirit to cast it out. You can’t cast it out; it takes the Holy Spirit to cast it out! Then after the Holy Spirit is cast it out, and then you have the Holy Spirit, now get me straight, then you are preserved. It’s just like putting up some preservatives; they’ll do for years and years to come. So then you’re preserved in Him unto the coming of Yahshua the Messiah. In other words you got the real genuine thing in you, which discerns or helps YOU to discern…


Dennis: Okay can I get. . .


Dr. Kinley: Now we wanna get the difference between them that's transformed into the angel of light and even Satan himself, now we wanna get the difference between them and the True Apostles! All right, there you go.


Dennis: Could I just say something Doc?

Dr. Kinley: Yes.


Dennis: If I understand what you’re saying, now you, (I think I do understand you), now if, let’s just say if I had both spirits in me it’ll be impossible for Him to discern who I was…


Dr. Kinley: Now that’s right.


Dennis: because I’d, one time I’d be Satan, the next time I’d be Yahshua. Where if you only got one spirit in a body, it’s the Holy Spirit, then that's how you discern who's who at the address.


Dr. Kinley: That’s right.


Dennis: If you had both there’d be no way to discern, but one time it would be the Holy, (If it was that way I’m saying), and it ain’t that way but it would...


Dr. Kinley: No it’s not that way.

Dennis: I'm with you boss.


Dr. Kinley: Okay. Now we want, I want you to know that it did exist, and that is the contention. Now just like the question was posed to me one time: "Say listen here, since you say that Yahweh Elohim sent you to preach, now then He said in Matthew 28:19-20, go in all the world preach in the name, and lo I’m with you always, (I'm just cutting it up short), with you alway even until the end of the age, can you tell me who the successors to the Apostles are that preached the gospel?" SURE I CAN TELL YOU! That ain’t no problem at all! IT’S THE SAME SPIRIT IN ALL OF ‘EM that's gonna be with them all the way through down through the age! SURE I KNOW! YOU KEEP YOUR BIG MOUTH SHUT!! HE SAID THAT HE WOULD DO THE PREACHING. That’s what He just got through saying. Well how you get some proof for that? Didn’t He tell Moses that He, certainly I will be with you until the end of this, the end of His commission. Now the point that we’re are discussing here now, how are we going to tell the difference between the true and the false? Now that’s what you have.


Rip: Therefore seeing we have this ministry…


Dr. Kinley: Now therefore seeing [CD1445 - CD2026] we have this ministry, seeing that we do have this ministry - what about it?


Rip: As we have received mercy…

Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)

Rip: we faint not…


Dr. Kinley: Now we’re not gonna faint because they’re out there, we’re not gonna faint. All right read on.


Rip: but have renounced. . .


Dr. Kinley: Now we have renounced the hidden things. We’ve renounced! In other words we’re telling you that Yahshua the Messiah fulfilled all them things and moved them out of the way so that you could be governed by the Holy Spirit.


Dennis: Okay boss.


Dr. Kinley: But we've renounced... That's a hidden thing! See we’ve renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, telling you that Jesus said for us to do this over here, and you're reading out of the Bible where He’s talking to the Jews and the Jews only, under the dispensation of the Law, and giving them the, uh, fulfilling the law and the prophecy. And He said to them at that time, which was Jews only, and here come the Gentile wanting to ease this in over in this dispensation that you’re suppose to keep the Passover as they did under the dispensation of the Law. We wanna put the Gentiles into that. No we we’ve dispensed with that, the hidden thing of dishonesty. You follow what I'm talking about?


Rip: I follow you


Dr. Kinley: And because the so-called New Testament is written, they wanna take this for the New Testament, which it is not that, it is only a autobiography of Yahshua the Messiah in the days of His flesh, under the law, fulfilling the law and prophecy. And that was not in this present dispensation and age, which ended at Pentecost. Now how ‘bout that? Now we’ve dispensed with that using those things as another mean to deceive the people. All right read on. You following me Rip?


Rip: I am! Yes, yes I’m with you. I’m with you.

Dr. Kinley: Okay.

Rip: nor of handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully…

Dr. Kinley: Nor handling the word deceitfully

Rip: but by manifestation…

Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)

Rip: of the truth…

Dr. Kinley: By manifestation of the truth

Rip: commending ourselves…

Dr. Kinley: (Repeats)

Rip: to every man’s conscience…


Dr. Kinley: every man’s conscience, that which the Apostle is speaking. Now you got a conscience! Now we’re commending ourselves to your conscience. You can examine what we’re saying to you just like they did down there in Berea. Check it out and see whether it’s according to the Law and the Prophecy. And then you be diligent and search it, and find out whether we’re telling you straight or right about it. Okay, then you'll be able to discern. All right read.


Rip: but if our Gospel be hid…


Dr. Kinley: but if, now if you can't see it, but if our Gospel... We’re the true ministers, "Seeing we’ve received this ministry." Now but if our Gospel be hid it’s hid from them that are lost. Now you understand what I, I...


Rip: I understand what you’re saying. . .


Dr. Kinley: Now we’ve applied it, and we’ve turned it around every kinda way, and anybody that can’t see it, what your problem is you’re lost.


Rip: I got one question to ask in regards to that…

Dr. Kinley: All right.


Rip: Now seeing that they had false Apostles among the ones that were teaching back there in that time, in Paul's time, and with the children of Israel. There were false teachers among the ones that were really being led by the true divine Holy Spirit. That same thing…


Dr. Kinley: Now they were not Apostles. See now Rip, I'll jump you, I'll jump the gun on you in a minute about it…


Rip: I understand what you're saying.


Dr. Kinley: And the reason why I’m bringing that in there is because that was the Law and the Prophets, both of 'em, they were by the Holy Spirit. But now here’s what it means. An Apostle is an eyewitness, an eyewitness of what? He’s an eyewitness of Yahweh incarnated in the physical body and known as Yahshua the Messiah. They followed Him around over the Palestinian and Judean hills and looked at what He did! They’re eyewitnesses!


Rip: So the cause of the problem would be the ones that are around witnessing and looking at what you are doing...


Dr. Kinley: That is correct.

Rip: and falsely representing it…


Dr. Kinley: That’s right! See they saw Him. Eyewitness means they saw Him, and they followed Him. Now here comes the Apostle Paul, he didn’t follow Him around over the Judean and Palestinian hills, which would make it greater than those that did see Him cause Yahweh put His spirit in him. And he had seen Him on the way going down to Damascus. And then he had to go right to the person that Yahweh sent him to down in Damascus, and to receive instruction about what to do, so he was right in line with the rest of ‘em, and therefore made an Apostle of the Gentiles. Now listen clearly at what I'm saying, is because the Gentiles they never did have no promises. All of it was given to the Hebrews to be passed on to the Gentiles, and blessed according to the promise that He had made, Yahweh made to Abraham and his seed. You follow what I'm talking about?


Rip: Yeah I’m digging into what you’re saying.


Dr. Kinley: So I wanted you to see that these things that are unto... Now listen somebody would say that when Paul saw Him there going on his way down to Damascus, and somebody say well he got the Holy Spirit. I beg your pardon the Holy Spirit’s got him. He was sent on down to Damascus, and that's what the Holy Spirit through Ananias told him. Said "Why tarryest thou, rise and be baptized in the name of Yahshua the Messiah and wash away your sin." You follow what I'm talking about?


Dennis: So then if The Boss hadn't commissioned him…

Dr. Kinley: Then he received the Holy Spirit. . .

Dennis: Right! And by his, by virtue…

Dr. Kinley: And then not only that, (I’m sorry), then he went on down uh in, uh where did he go Luther?

Luther: down to Damascus on Straight Street.

Dr. Kinley: After he left Damascus where did he go?

Rip: In Arabia


Dr. Kinley: He went in the region of the mount Messiah went in, Mt. Sinai where those tribes were that didn't cross over and had some inheritance in there. . .


Dennis: So then virtually. . .

Dr. Kinley: And he called that the pillar and the ground of the truth so he told Timothy. Okay.

Dennis: What I wanna know then, that made him to be an eye witness then, right?

Dr. Kinley: Yes!


Dennis: and that’s why he was called an Apostle? I'm with you; I'm with you. I just wanna make sure I'm following you, all right.


Dr. Kinley: Yes indeed.


Rip: So if a person claims that they are under the influence of the Holy Spirit and yet they go out and commit such acts as running around with somebody else’s wife or husband, or committing fornicative acts or homosexual acts, then that individual in that particular spirit is falsely representing the Holy Spirit. Is that right?


Dr. Kinley: Well, now you see, you’ve got some things there which we have said that the people do that claim to be, and then when it comes down to proving their contentions, it must be done by the scriptures. That’s the reason why I said, and actually referred you to the 2nd Corinthians the 4th Chapter, we've dispensed with all of that, the hidden things of dishonesty. And we've renounced that, and you’re bringing to life the reality of the thing, and not the contentions of mankind. We’re able then by the Holy Spirit to discern them satanic spirits incarnated in the physical bodies. We don’t give a hoot what they say, we have something to test it by, the reality of it. Now did you follow me?


Rip: Yeah, I’m, I read you loud and clear.

Dr. Kinley: That’s what you're reading about!

Rip: I just wanna get it straight. I just wanna get it straight.


Dr. Kinley: Well there you are. See you just can’t take everybody’s testimony. Everybody is saying, "Yes I’m right, and I believe the truth." That’s what everybody’s saying. But now with you who have heard and know something about the truth and the gospel, you can't take all this junk and stuff, but you do have something to discern the right and the wrong of it. The heck with what everybody says. You take almost anybody who's out here that doesn't belong in the school, and don’t know nothing about the teaching or doctrine, they’ll say that I'm wrong. Well what would you expect? You couldn’t expect ‘em to say that I’m right about it, and they’re doing contrary. That's the reason why couldn’t none of ‘em answer our request there, to read the book and send us back some kind of an answer. Because if he send it back a answer that he agrees with us, then he puts his foot in his own mouth, so best thing for him to do is just keep silent. Cause we said that if ever anything that they said we was gone print in our next edition of the book.


Rip: Well now that particular kind of situation is very obvious, but when somebody comes to me and says, "Well I believe that Dr. Kinley received a vision and revelation; I believe that he has healed the sick and raised the dead; I believe in what he taught me…"


Dr. Kinley: All right, now the point, now just take that. That's, that’s all right too so far as that part of it goes. Now what's causing you to believe?


Rip: The proof.


Dr. Kinley: In other words you’ll have to have some... See even if a person says that, a lot of times people will say that and still don’t believe it!


Rip: That’s what I was after.

Dr. Kinley: You see what I’m talking about?

Dennis: Okay Boss.


Dr. Kinley: Just like they said about Yahshua the Messiah, they said they believed, and all like that, and when it got right down to the place where He had to go and to be crucified, then they saying, “Away with Him now.” Yet in still there were many of 'em healed of all kind of diseases, even right down among the Apostles themselves and them that were eyewitnesses, they were involved, Peter too, and the rest of ‘em. So what you’ve got here, what you’ve got here is, see you don’t have to be baffled about it or indefinite in your decision, and so forth and so on, you don’t have to do that. Yahweh is real! That’s the thing I been trying my best to get over to the people every since I been trying to preach to ‘em. Yahweh’s real! It’s not some kind of superstition and there’s no proof or nothing for it, or some kind of an exalteth imagination; it’s not that! Yahweh is real! And that’s the reason why I told them people in New York and everywhere else, to have the emcee to get up there and tell you. Now we’re not down there talking to ourselves and doing something what we’re imagining. Now we don’t want you to have no such a idea! We’re down there because we realize, and we have found and we do know, and we do realize, and we want you to understand. That’s the same thing that the Apostle is talking about there in the 2nd Chapter, and the 4th Chapter of 2nd Corinthians; they’ve found out about it. So these things they’re covered up and hid and the people are deceived. But the real genuine Holy Spirit in you... Now we’ve left the idea of saying Apostles, we’re just talking about the Holy Spirit in you now, and yet that's what the Apostles preached with. You understand?


Dennis: Definitely.

Dr. Kinley: You see?

Dennis: Definitely.


Dr. Kinley: And the same thing in your situation, you don’t have no excuse (I’m back here to the 1st Chapter of Romans 19th & 20th verses) you don’t have no excuse for ignorance, for not understanding these things. What do you expect of the devil? You follow?


Dennis: Can I ask you something Dr. Kinley?

Dr. Kinley: Yes.


Dennis: Now in discerning spirits incarnated in a body, here in the school now I'm talking about, I’m not talking about in the world I’m talking about right here in the school…


Dr. Kinley: Well now right there it just don't make no difference.


Dennis: Okay, well I just wanna stipulate that for this reason: it’s no problem for me to point to Billy Graham and the Pope and see that that's a satanic spirit…


Dr. Kinley: That’s right.


Dennis: but what I’m saying is this: Let’s say I get on the floor, (I don't care who it is, anybody), and I get up there and I'm teaching something that I think that I understand and is right, but later I'm wrong about the thing, I mean I'm wrong, I’m just wrong about it, but I don't realize I’m wrong about it. Now is it expedient for somebody to point a finger at me because I made a mistake, not intentionally, but made a mistake and say, "There’s a Satanic Spirit?"


Dr. Kinley: Now you see, now what you have gotten into there is probabilities.

Dennis: Okay.


Dr. Kinley: and then another thing too, if the person that made the remark, if they had the Holy Spirit they wouldn’t do that. Now look here, I have heard many times, just many times, people get up on the floor and make mistakes.


Dennis: of course

Dr. Kinley: And it’s just a common thing for them to do that.

Dennis: exactly

Dr. Kinley: You follow?

Dennis: okay

Dr. Kinley: Now what I would do if it were serious enough to be considered, I would go to that person…

Dennis: I agree with you 100%


Dr. Kinley: But you see the point of it is this: If it was that way and they said it, (and if you had it recorded) they were unconscious of the fact. Most of the time (now listen at what I’m saying), most of the time they’ll even forget about that even hardly before you got down the stair steps; I'm talking about the audience.


Dennis: I’m listening now, okay go ‘head


Dr. Kinley: They were just... In other words if you asked them about something that was said, they might have over looked it altogether.


Dennis: Okay.


Dr. Kinley: Well I don’t! And they might have received it and went ahead on, I say, "But hey buster you’ve made a mistake." You see what I'm talking about?


Dennis: I see your point. I see your point on that…

Dr. Kinley: Now what I’m gonna do, see what I’m going to do, is put you on the carpet!

Dennis: straighten me out about it.

Dr. Kinley: That's right.

Dennis: Okay. Now that’s doing it in righteousness, I understand that Doc. In other words that's the way to do it…


Dr. Kinley: Now that's all you got to go by. You don’t go by no superstition! And you don’t go by no false imaginations and what not, some kind of a ritualistic concept conjured up by you…

[ Side 2 (1of2) ]


Dennis: I understand that.

Dr. Kinley: All right there you go.


Dennis: This is what, okay, and this is what I’m trying to do Boss. I don't wanna teach or make the mistake of pointing a finger at somebody when they made a mistake, when they were sincere, but they got on that floor and they... All of us make mistakes except for you Boss. I mean, I know I make mistakes, (I’m not conscious of it), and if somebody straightens me out and shows me, I receive chastisement or try to do that. Now what I'm saying is I don't want, I know that a lot of people are pointing fingers and saying "This guy is a Satanic spirit," cause he might have got up there and made a mistake, rather than doing it the right way like you said, going up to the person and say "Look, how does this work and can you prove it?"


Dr. Kinley: Not in front of the audience…


Dennis: Yeah I know; I follow that now. Yeah, I’m with you on that, in other words take them aside; okay I’m with you on that. I made that mistake myself, and I got condemnation, I ain’t, and I won’t do that again either, but, but...


Dr. Kinley: [Laughs] You see all things has to be done decent and in order…

Dennis: I understand that Doc. I’m with you; I’m with you on that 100%.

Dr. Kinley: in order to set up things.


Dennis: But the thing I’m wondering here is this. In discerning a spirit, now we teach in this class that Satan gets slick in this school; this is where he’s really slick, he don't teach you carnal ordinances and all that kind of stuff. All right. Now what I'm looking at is this…


Dr. Kinley: No, that ain’t right…

Dennis: Oh well, I thought it, okay…

Dr. Kinley: See now the reason why I said that…

Dennis: That’s all right go ‘head.


Dr. Kinley: Now Satan, see that’s what he uses. Read on Rip. Now I got to find it. Now you got to get it straight, I got to get in behind it… [Speaking low in trying to find the Scripture not recorded].


Rip: 4th Chapter of 2nd Corinthians…

Dr. Kinley: Where you, where you was reading at.

Rip: Okay. But if our gospel is hid, it’s hid to them that are lost. In whom the God of this world…

Dr. Kinley: See there

Rip: has blinded the minds of them

Dr. Kinley: See there

Rip: which believe not…


Dr. Kinley: Now you see that? Now that's the individual that don’t believe, and the gospel in its reality is hid from him. You see, did you understand?


Dennis: I think I’m following you…

Dr. Kinley: In other words IF HE WAS SPEAKING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHAT HE SAID WOULD BE RIGHT!

Dennis: It would be right.

Dr. Kinley: Now we don’t have nothing like that in this school. You follow what I mean?

Dennis: All right.


Dr. Kinley: Somebody that gets up and speak by the Holy Spirit or by a satanic spirit either one, we discern which one or which one is right.


Dennis: Okay I’m with you on that point…

Dr. Kinley: Well now that's all the points there can be.

Rip: [Laughs]

Dennis: uh, okay...

Dr. Kinley: Do you follow what I’m talking about?

Dennis: Yes I follow that point…


Dr. Kinley: Now my thought to you is this: Now I have gotten up there myself, and I've said something about maybe, Jerusalem, when I meant Ephesus or something another like that, and they've corrected me standing right there in the room. They knew that I meant Ephesus so then they’ll give me a thank you for your correction. You see what I’m talking about? Yes that's correction.


Dennis: Yes I follow you.

Dr. Kinley: See those things are... Now that's not satanic.

Dennis: Yes I know that Doc, I know that.

Dr. Kinley: Well I just wanted to straighten the thing so that you could understand what I'm talking about.

Dennis: Okay, all right.


Dr. Kinley: But now so far as a satanic spirit getting up there, and the people being left in blindness and ignorance and darkness, no that doesn't, that doesn't belong in this school, so please don't put it in here.


Dennis: All right, okay and that’s what, okay that’s. . .


Dr. Kinley: Now you see I have to have something definite, something basic, and something concrete to prove to you! There ain't no wolves in them sitting in the reality of the thing. But there's a many of ‘em setting out there in the audience and the congregation, they may claim to be a part of the school and all like that, but we can discern all of that. In other words we’re not, we’re not in, we’re not operating in the dark…


Dennis: All right I understand that Doc…

Dr. Kinley: Now you, ARE YOU SATISFIED?

Dennis: Okay, partially…

Dr. Kinley: Well now what we, I want non-partiality…

Dennis: Now let me tell you what's on my mind…

Dr. Kinley: I know what it is.


Dennis: I know you know that too. Doc what I'm thinking is this: For instance, well, I know I've gotten on the floor and taught things that I felt were right. And once you, one time before, 71, you told me this: You said "If you think you’re right about a thing and really are convinced within yourself you’re doing that thing in righteousness, until somebody shows you where you’re wrong," you told me "Stick to your gun." Now you told me that…


Dr. Kinley: That’s right. Yes, I’ve always said that.


Dennis: Yes, and that’s the only way to do it, I understand that. But what I’m saying is this: I have taught things I know and been... For example, I taught that the High Priest went straight up through the veil there, okay, until you corrected us and told us he went around the veil there that it wasn't split. Now what I'm saying is once you accept chastisement and understand that you been teaching wrong you have to change, I understand that. . .


Dr. Kinley: But now wait just a minute. Now you said you taught that.

Dennis: Yeah.

Dr. Kinley: Is that right?

Dennis: Yeah, I taught that before and gotten straighten out to. . .

Dr. Kinley: in front of the people…

Dennis: Yeah.

Dr. Kinley: And they didn’t know no the difference

Dennis: We didn't know the difference…


Dr. Kinley: Well now see, now Yahweh, in His imputation knew you didn’t. You were not all that wrong. In part you were wrong about what you were saying and trying to teach.


Dennis: Okay.


Dr. Kinley: Now then here’s another thing about that same situation. You couldn’t take the Bible to prove that you were right about it, and they couldn't take it and prove it that you’re wrong about it. Neither way, because you don't have no Bible for what you were teaching, and they don't have no Bible to say that you're not right about it.


Dennis: Then what you are saying here then is this, because it was done with a pure heart…

Dr. Kinley: Yes that's right, and it wasn’t revealed…

Dennis: Then that justifies it then…

Dr. Kinley: It wasn't revealed.


Dennis: That's what I’m talking about, right what you just said there. In other words when we get up... And you made the statement that the Holy Spirit doesn't make mistakes, and it doesn’t, I understand that.


Dr. Kinley: That's right.

Dennis: And what you’re talking about is not that a person can’t get up and teach something like the veil split…

Dr. Kinley: That’s right.

Dennis: but the fact is their heart is pure and they’re trying to do it in righteousness…

Dr. Kinley: And you don't have no Bible for it…

Dennis: It hasn't been revealed yet.

Dr. Kinley: That’s right.

Dennis: That's what I'm talking about right there.

Dr. Kinley: Well you see the point is just as I said, when a thing is not revealed it just isn’t revealed; it’s before time.


Dennis: So it is possible again for us to have the Holy Spirit, but because it hasn't been revealed teach something that ain't necessarily...


Dr. Kinley: Then you ought not to be trying to teach something that hasn't been revealed to you.

Dennis: Okay, well then, [chuckles]...

Dr. Kinley: Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good!

Dennis: All right. All right, I’m with you.

Dr. Kinley: Okay.


Luther: Going back, about the high priest went on straight in, about the veil, and that's the way it is now, you're looking straight on in now...


Dr. Kinley: That’s right, that’s right.


Luther: So in other word he was teaching it the straight way all along, but we didn't know about the high priest going around in there. Well see he's teaching, he’s been teaching us the right way all along, but we just coming to find out about that. But that's where it stands now; he's looking straight on in now. . .


Dr. Kinley: It just hadn't been revealed.

Luther: Right.

Dr. Kinley: Because it had to be revealed.

Rip: So at first it was like this, and now it was like this. [Laughs]

Man: Right! [Laughs]

Rip: I picked that up in Springfield when we were down there. [Laughs]

Dr. Kinley: Yeah that’s the way that...


Dennis: So all right now, therefore so what I wanna know is this Doc. In discerning either whether it's a righteous or satanic spirit, how exactly do we do we look at each other? Say Rip’s talking to me - how do I discern if that's the righteous or satanic spirit? Is it by the fact that he's either got witnesses or he don't have it?


Dr. Kinley: How's that?


Dennis: Is discerning a spirit done this way? If somebody says something, and they can prove it, that means that's a righteous spirit, okay…


Dr. Kinley: and they can prove it.


Dennis: They can prove that by the law and the prophecy. Now if somebody says something and can't prove it, does that mean that's a satanic spirit?


Dr. Kinley: Not necessarily so…

Dennis: That's what I wanna understand.


Dr. Kinley: but the point is, the point is this with what you're discussing and what you're talking about, (just like the thing that we just got through talking about), you don't have nothing to prove one way or the other. Then when you went to the Scriptures that’s where you found out that you didn't know; in other words you misapplied it.


Dennis: Misapplied it, yes.

Dr. Kinley: You see what I'm talking about?


Dennis: All right I'm with you on that. Okay I see the point. Now here's another thing too. Once you have the thing straight within yourself... Let's say for instance I taught Rip something wrong, and Rip came up and straightened me out on it - now if I don't accept chastisement, then that mean that this is a bastard in here, right?


Dr. Kinley: Well see here's the thing about it: The way you're posing the question and all, you're posing the question in a superficial way, and we don't want that, we want the positiveness. We want the Holy Spirit to be in you and be in Rip together, and you agree on the thing. NOW IN OTHER WORDS, EXPOUND THE THING TO ONE ANOTHER AND SEE IF YOU UNDERSTAND IT THE SAME. That's what we're doing down there in the school. Now people make, there may be a bunch of people down there that have a misunderstanding about many things. But now when you expound it, that's why the school is there, that's what going to school means. See when you expound the thing so everybody can see and understand it, and then we'll ask the question, "Now do you understand?" See that's where the thought come from, "Do you understand?” And saying that, "Do you understand?" You haven't told me yet! But now what you have to do is go on and explain the thing first so that everybody, ACCORDING TO THE LAW & PROPHECY, so that everybody, it's possible for everybody that’s sitting there, even if they had different thoughts and opinions about it, to understand it.


Man: It's something else.

Another Man: Yeah, it is something else.

Dr. Kinley: Yes, that's right.


Rip: The same thing that I read many times, the same chapter, I read it and I understood it to an nth degree, but now you know the scales is fallen off.


Students: The veil is been removed.

Rip: I been looking dimly but now I'm looking at it face to face; I’m seeing this thing.

Dr. Kinley: Yeah, that's right.


Rip: See but I had to get a clear understanding of what this thing is about, because when you have a speaker standing up and expounding correlations, I mean adequately, and with such colorful oration, I mean it would be hard to disbelieve. But now if you are now looking keenly at the thing, you can discern if the brother is a false apostle, or the true apostle. In other words a person's that's... I caught this when he was down at Springfield, he said, he said it three times, he said "Now the people, the apostles, or the disciples were around with Yahshua for three and a half years, they followed Him around and watched everything that He did, saw everything that He did, and still didn't understand what He was doing." Now I've heard him say that many times, but it didn't dawn on me what he was talking about until he said it in Springfield. Now I'm getting some reinforcement. . .


Dr. Kinley: Yes, now let me just interrupt right there, right there. Now what I said to you about that, now then this is how that can be proven. See after His resurrection, (Luke 24th Chapter of Luke), He sit down and He opened up their understanding. Well if they had already understood when they were following Him around it wouldn't have been any necessity for that. That's what the book says, said He opened up their understanding. . .


Dennis: Doc, when He opened up their understanding, now that would be before Pentecost, right?

Dr. Kinley: Yeah

[Bud Wunch enters room, about a minute of conversation not transcribed]


Dennis: So when He opened up their understanding there in Matthew, which was after His resurrection but before Pentecost, they didn't have the Holy Spirit yet, right?


Dr. Kinley: No.

Dennis: Then how could they understand Doc?


Dr. Kinley: Well listen! If I'm the one that caused what is written in the Law and the Prophecy to be written, I'm the authority then to open up your understanding and to tell you the meaning of it.


Dennis: I agree with that.

Dr. Kinley: Well if you gone agree with that then you gonna have to accept what I say about it…

Dennis: Oh I'm not arguing with you Doc.


Dr. Kinley: No, that ain't what I mean. I'm telling you He was the one, and it would be the same thing when Pentecost did come. Now when He opened up their understanding through the Scriptures, how it was applied and why this and that and the other was done, now you can't say He opened up their understanding if He hadn't did it.


Dennis: Yeah, I guess that's true.


Dr. Kinley: Now then He did it! Now Him opening up their understanding, now they went and made another serious blunder. Now this is before Pentecost. Now this is what, here's the blunder they made. He told them to go back to Jerusalem and tarry there until they receive power from on high, and then you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and Samaria, and to the utmost parts of the world, which the Holy Spirit they were to received, just to be exact about it, ten days afterwards. But between that and during those ten days, from there to Pentecost, (after He's opened up their understanding now), they were reading around in the book cause He showed them how to make the connections, and that's opening up their understanding to what He was doing fulfilling the law and the prophets. But He didn't say anything at all about who was suppose to take Judas' place who by transgression fell…


Dennis: I knew you were going there; I knew you were going there Boss…

Dr. Kinley: I have to!

Dennis: Obviously! I knew where you were going with that. They ain't got no right to do that…


Dr. Kinley: He didn't tell 'em, He didn't tell 'em nothing about that, He never opened up their understanding. So then since they know now how to go about the thing from the way that He told 'em, and opened up their understanding in the reality of it, but He didn't tell 'em anything about that.


Dennis: Okay.

Dr. Kinley: so the appointment was not made.

Dennis: All right


Dr. Kinley: Now they didn't know and yet in still Judas was right with 'em while He was, (he's one of 'em too), and he had his little anointing oil, and he’s putting it on the people, and they were being healed too, no fooling. But they didn't know that Judas would betray Him, but He knew from the very beginning. And the satanic spirits that was, they were incarnated in Peter there when they were coming down off the mountain, but they entered into Judas. Are you following me now on that?


Dennis: Yeah, I'm with you on that. Okay so…


Rip: Well then what happens when Peter sided, when the Gentiles were with him he sat with them, and when the Jews would come around he removed himself and Paul jumped on him about it? What…


Dr. Kinley: I didn't, I wasn't able to concentrate on what you were saying.

Rip: When Paul withstood Peter face to face…


Dr. Kinley: Now are you trying to connect it with what I'm trying to say? Are you trying to connect it to what we were saying here?


Rip: Right, right, right. I'm saying. . .

Dr. Kinley: Now what happened with what?


Rip: What would be the case of when Paul reprimanded Peter for siding with the circumcised? When he removes himself when the Jews would come around, he remove himself and sat with the Jews, and the book says, "That Paul withstood him face to face because he was to be blamed."


Dr. Kinley: Yes, because now when Peter spoke, (listen clearly to what I'm saying), Peter spoke to the Gentiles, and talked to ‘em. Now you see Paul understands Peter, and Peter understands Paul. SINCE HE MADE THE STATEMENT PUBLICLY THEN HE HAS TO BE REBUKED PUBLICLY FOR MAKING IT, THE STATEMENT. But when the scripture is used in conjunction and relations to it, (not that Peter made a mistake intentionally or that he wasn't mistaken about it), but he had to withdraw that because of the broadness of the gospel. They understood one another. See that's the reason why they extended one another the right hand of fellowship, because it was brought out right there before 'em and both of 'em extended the right hand of fellowship. You see what I'm talking about?


Rip: um hum, all right, okay.


Dr. Kinley: See you could apply it under the law, then after he gets from under the law with it... See the application? Now both of these people had the Holy Spirit, and it could be applied under the law, and then it could be applied under the dispensation of Grace.


Now listen here, I have said things to people and didn't finish the statements, they went on off with that, and then later they brought it back up again, and then I said "Yes I did say that, and it’s recorded too, yes I did say that, but I just didn't finish the statement.” A lot of times I hear 'em get up and say things and then don't finish the statement, finish the thought. Sometimes it's because it's an interruption they don't finish the thought. Well somebody's got the thought up to a certain point and they gone on off, but since you didn't finish it the people got the wrong perception of it. You see what I mean? But when you… see when you find out then that they got the wrong perception of it because they wasn't permitted under the circumstances to finish the thought, then if you don't finish it, and it's something that's important, why then next time you called up on the floor there, then you call their attention to it and then complete the thing and then finish the thought. You follow?


Rip: I follow you. I've got one other question and I'll be through asking questions. Inasmuch as you said "The Holy Spirit don't make mistakes," and Peter being full of the at this particular time, Peter and Paul both, but now then in this particular circumstance when Paul reprimands Peter, would that be considered as a mistake or just what would it be considered as?


Dr. Kinley: No, now let me tell you about that. Now here down at Cornelius' house, Peter commanded Cornelius to be baptized. Now that was said, (Peter had the Holy Spirit too), that was said purposely, or in other words the Holy Spirit let him go on and say that because of what was written before, that He would bring all things back to his remembrance whatsoever He had said to ‘em, so He permits him to say this. And what he said here before was all right while he was preaching, but when he seen the Holy Spirit was falling on them as it did on them at Pentecost, then his attention is distracted or withdrawn from that. Then seeing that, then that made him, (he's puzzled by it, seeing the Gentiles being brought in), but Yahweh's bringing 'em in according to the way He made the promise to Abraham, but it was by faith and not by the works of the law. Well Peter, having been one that was with Him on both sides of the cross, then he recommends that he be baptized in water. The Holy Spirit ceased of expression. And he's taking his thought now to go back to where they were before His death, burial, resurrection, and so then the Holy Spirit's bringing it to his remembrance. Now He had told him that the Holy Spirit would bring it to his remembrance everything that He had said to 'em. Then Peter said "Then remembered I the words of Yahshua how He said John truly baptized with water but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence."


Luther: On that part right there was that Peter's carnal mind going back?

Dr. Kinley: No it wasn't his carnal mind, he didn't have a carnal mind.

Dennis: He didn't have carnal mind Doc?

Dr. Kinley: No, no that's not a carnal mind…

Dennis: I know that, but he didn't, he didn't have one no more?


Dr. Kinley: Look, a carnal mind and a spiritual mind is not one and the same. But I was just saying there that it was the Holy Spirit that allowed him to say that in order so that He could bring to his attention…


Dennis: back to his remembrance, I'm with you on that.


Dr. Kinley: Now when he was looking at that that had taken part on the on the other side of the cross, it was true, but there were no Gentiles baptized, but it was true that water baptism was in order.


Dennis: Okay, I'm with you on that…


Dr. Kinley: It was not a superficial thing, it was true. But Peter he just didn't understand, because nothing was explained to him about the Gentiles not being baptized.


Dennis: Okay then, all right.


Dr. Kinley: So then, now that was purposely done so that He could call his attention to it, and it's by revelation that he received it. Then Peter had the Holy Spirit, it takes such to reveal it to him. So then it tells you here in the first chapter of Acts of Apostles, before I move, that John truly baptized the Holy Spirit but you shall be baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.


Dennis: Right, right, I'm with you on that Doc. Now here's something else…

Dr. Kinley: I just wanna know...


Dennis: I with you on it. Here's something else too. Going back to our original point about "Then opened up He their understanding," but the Holy Spirit wasn't poured out till ten days later. That means then that a person could understand institution and fulfillment and not have the Holy Spirit?


Dr. Kinley: Well see the direction, the director in both cases is the same…

Dennis: is the Holy Spirit.


Dr. Kinley: Now let's put it like this. Now you and I are sitting here talking. Now as you talk, and as I talk, now I've got to discern from which angel that you're speaking from before I can teach you anything, even whether you understand it or not. But I've got to be real, I can't be false...


Dennis: Oh definitely.


Dr. Kinley: but whatever I say to you about it that's His authority. It’s as authoritative as me setting here with the Holy Spirit as it would be if I ascended and poured out the Holy Spirit, same spirit.


Dennis: Same spirit.


Dr. Kinley: Now just like this, when He taught them how to pray He was in the flesh setting down there talking to them. Now you pray after this manner: "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be they name, thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever and ever, Halleluyah." Now that's what He taught them. He's giving 'em that same thing after He's out, out of the flesh. The Holy Spirit makes the intercession for you, same thing, no difference.


Dennis: Okay. I'm appreciating what you're you saying…

Dr. Kinley: Yeah, that's right - same spirit, same spirit…

Dennis: I'm with you on that; I'm with you on that…

Dr. Kinley: Well that's the way it is.

Dennis: Okay I'm with you on that Doc.


Dr. Kinley: Well see He's making the intercession for us now just like he was helping them out, same spirit, no difference.


Dennis: Yes, I understand that.

Dr. Kinley: You follow?

Dennis: Yeah


Dr. Kinley: Well that's what you got to understand on both sides of the cross.


[Laughter in the room -- low conversation not recorded, Tape turned off then back on]


Dennis: Well all I wanna do, I wanna go back over the things again before I leave, cause I don't understand what you're talking about, although what you're saying... The points you're making I understand but where you're going with them I'm lost...


Dr. Kinley: You don't always understand, sometimes you do…

Dennis: Sometimes I do, yeah I admit that.


Dr. Kinley: but that that you don't understand then it's my indispensable duty to see to it and fix it so you do understand.


Dennis: Well, sometimes I think you get mad at me because I don't always follow you…

Dr. Kinley: No, I do not!

Dennis: Okay, well I just got'a be honest with you…

Dr. Kinley: That's what my job is. And on top of all that, I'm fully conscious and aware…

Dennis: Yeah, I know that.


Dr. Kinley: I'm fully conscious and aware. A lot of times, as I told you before, these statements are made, people are wrong about ‘em, BUT I DON'T CHOOSE TO CORRECT SOMEBODY IN AN AUDIENCE. You understand?


Dennis: Yeah I understand.

Dr. Kinley: But that's what my job is, is to discern it! Now why should I get mad at you?


Dennis: Well, here's the thing Doc, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to put any barriers up; I'm not trying to act like I understand it…


Dr. Kinley: Well now you don't have to tell me that.

Dennis: Okay, I know that.

Dr. Kinley: but I just... [Laughs]

Dennis: You know why it's so hard? You know why it's to hard to talk to you Boss…

Dr. Kinley: you see I, I cut off occasion.


Dennis: It's hard to talk sometimes to you boss because you don't know what to say to you, because anything I say I'm aware that you're already aware of it.


Dr. Kinley: Well that's all right just go right 'head on and say it. [Laughs]


Dennis: Okay. Well, I thought some things that you said today that are nice points and I really liked them. You know, like I like that point you were discussing about the Holy Spirit not making mistakes I think I can follow that.


Dr. Kinley: No the Holy Spirit don't make no mistakes.


Dennis: What's that point about discerning that false prophet now, or that false spirit? And showing that if there were two spirits in a person's body, obviously it would be no way to discern…


Dr. Kinley: That's right.

Dennis: because one time the Holy Spirit might be in there, next time the satanic spirit's in there…

Dr. Kinley: That's the reason why the Apostle is comparing, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.

Dennis: That's a beautiful point. That's…


Rip: Well, from what I can get out of it, and I'm gonna be frank and honest with you. What I can get out of it, I'm discerning the deportment and conduct of certain individuals that I have beheld, is that two spirits can't operate in a body at the same time. The deportment and conduct that I have seen exhibited in those people, Pentecost hasn't come yet. In other words, the Holy Spirit hasn't come. You don't... To me the Holy Spirit doesn't mess around with somebody else’s wife or somebody else’s husband. It's obviously wrong in reference to what you told us the other day, "That physical Adultery is wrong, and the Holy Spirit hasn't been pleased with it physically or spiritually." All right, so if a person is still under those particular influences and engaged in that type of activity, then it is quite obvious that two spirits can't abide in a body at the same time, it's quite obvious that the Holy Spirit has not come in that individual.


Dennis: All right and by the same token Doc, you had said this the other day too. That when a person is not, is not yet come into the awareness of what they're doing is wrong, until such time that person is (if they're not violating their conscious, let's put it that way), well, in other words if you're violating your conscience, okay I can see your point you're doing something wrong, but what I'm looking at, a person making mistakes and not realizing that they were doing wrong, does that necessarily mean that's a satanic spirit?


Dr. Kinley: No. No, you see that's the reason why I said to you that, that there’s no question about it. See people right in this school, some of 'em are doing some things that are wrong. They they're not doing 'em purposely...


Dennis: I'll testify to that.


Dr. Kinley: They're not doing 'em purposely. But my point is this, when they find out that they're wrong about it then it's time to quit, stop.


Dennis: to straighten up.

Dr. Kinley: Now let me get that in the Book, we wanna move this one on inside the Book. Now uh,

Dennis: All right, we got one right here David.


Dr. Kinley: We got one, you know, and he’s got one too. Now there was a, John said that there is a sin that is not unto death, I do not say that you should pray for it, AND THAT WAS THE SIN OF IGNORANCE. And they done things ignorantly under the dispensation of the law, they didn't do it intentionally just to be ... [Tape 1of1 Ends]. . . Now listen now, Satan challenged Yahshua the Messiah out there in the wilderness, and he's going to challenge you, so now you'll have to have something in you to discern it with. You have to know which way to go in order to discern the difference between right and wrong. Well which way do you go? Yahshua the Messiah said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man goeth unto the Father but by Me." Now it was He that was instituting back there under the dispensation of the law, and it was He that is fulfilling up here, still under the dispensation of the law, so He had to know the whole entire story. And so now what you'll have to have is that same spirit that was in Him incarnated in you. And that's what you need in order to prove the divine authenticity, the unerring accuracy and infallibility.


A while ago I spoke of something that was very personal to me, and then somebody posed a question and it pulled us off the subject. Now I'll tell you what it was. Now you see David is aware, and you’re aware, and so also is Rip. Now look, I asked Mitch to go to New York, and he went to New York. And he taught those people up there, but he didn't carry out the things that he had seen in the school here in his presentation to reveal it, and it went on that way for years until here just before the Convention. Now then here's what it was. We'll have a meeting here; okay you come to the meeting, the school, come to the meeting, and you bring some visitors. And here’s someone setting up here, that’s all right, but when time come for that meeting to start, what you're suppose to do is to let them people know, Mitch, the only way they can discern anything... They can't discern the difference between you setting up here in a conversation like we are as of now. You follow what I'm saying to you?


Dennis: Yes I do.


Dr. Kinley: So what you’re supposed to do, and what they have been accustomed to all their lives, see when they go to church they have a certain ritualistic procedure that they followed, meaning now, you keep silent, you be quiet, and then we'll first open up this service and we'll have class dedicated, the service is dedicated. And so now let's go at this thing and do it decent, and let's do it in order. Now you are out of order! We know you've been, all been taught differently. But it isn’t in order for you to interrupt me when I'm trying to teach. And you're suppose to recognized and realize that this meeting here is dedicated and consecrated by our offering up our prayers to Yahshua the Messiah. You're supposed to understand that. And you're not supposed to violate the order, even if it was out there in something that didn't amount to nothing. See what I mean?


Student: Yes I do.


Dr. Kinley: Now then, now since we've come conscious of it, and we have realized that we're not permitted to go in there and say these things, and smoke cigarettes and carry on, we ain't doing like that. Put them cigarettes out! And fact the matter I just don't... See things that people stumble and fall over, now I don't give him no break, don't give him no break to do that. When it comes down there in that hall down there, when the order is called in that meeting, and we have that prayer, we dedicated that service so whosoever it is in there speaking they won't be interrupted, SO THAT THEY'LL RECOGNIZE THAT WE DO BELIEVE IN A LIVING DEITY! Now if that had been followed out the results would have been better; now that hasn't been to long ago corrected. Now since it has been corrected then ---- ---- ----. But all the time that Mitchell was here, and since he was the Dean of the New York, that's what we did, we dedicated the service. Why didn’t he do it too? Why didn’t he follow the same rules and procedures?


Dennis: He thought he was doing the right thing at the time, but obviously I bought it, but I do understand…


Dr. Kinley: Well now the point is this: See if I'm being taught, and I accept it, I'm not supposed to be out there and do otherwise. Now there might be a question that makes it necessary for all them kind of things to be, but nevertheless that’s what we’re here for, seeing that the folks follow our instructions, which they didn’t have no instructions that they shouldn’t follow it.


Dennis: Well Doc, it was reported to me you had said after the meeting there in January when you really wanted the procedures started, “That we weren't wrong back there but now it's time to change…"


Dr. Kinley: I DID NOT SAY THAT!

Dennis: Well I, I don't, I don't know exactly, but that’s what I was reported.


Dr. Kinley: See I couldn't say that you were right and then instruct you to do otherwise in what you doing, and then say you right all at the same time when you wasn't; that don’t even make no kinda sense.


David Rosen: They were wrong right from the beginning because Mitchell knew better.


Dr. Kinley: I can't say that you're wrong, you're right and wrong all at the same time, it's got to be one way or the other.


[Tape cut off and then turned back on]


Now brethren I will say this to the both of you, I do desire to be interrogated or asked so you can learn. But now instead of you thinking up some questions…


Dennis: I know what you’re saying.


Dr. Kinley: Now that’s not always the best thing to do, but concentrate on what you’re asking with what you’re being taught, then when you receive an answer to it don’t be sitting up there thinking about posing the next question. Make sure you understand the one that you just posed, and it’s better to meditate and concentrate on them than it is to be thinking up some questions.


Dennis: All right then, that’s all of it. That’s clear.


Dr. Kinley: It’s clear. Now see I could’ve said that a long time ago. Now Paul put it like this, “Foolish and unlearned questions avoid.” But what he’s talking to is people that’s coming around just asking questions just to be asking questions, but we teach a class different to that. Just like somebody will say to you, “Well what church do you belong to?” Well he’s unaware; he’s a new person and is unaware that he’s asking a fool question, but to you that are trained and taught it’s a foolish question. So avoid those – why so – because they stir up a lot of strife. Now to us we know that there ain’t but one body for us to belong to, in reality, but you see they got a whole number, whole gang of ‘em, congregations and what not. You follow?


Dennis: Yeah, I’m with you on that.


Dr. Kinley: Say look, the basic and fundamental things is to understand, and always ask the pertinent thing, something that may be troubling you, just like the epistle that was written to Paul from Corinth, and they had desired him to reply to things concerning the flesh. And Paul wrote ‘em back and said, “Don’t you remember that when I was with you that I told you certain things?” And they were asking him about such things as you and I, and David discussed over there in the park. Now what you wanna do is do this, is to understand what you are doing and what you are saying. But first before you pose any questions to anybody always do this, try to find out the answers yourself, and if they don’t, if they do not satisfy with what your researching reveals in the textbook and whatnot, then some very important questions to you, they have.


Dennis: I’m with you on that.


Dr. Kinley: Now the reason I said that to you that way, because it’s gonna always be in the audience, they’re gonna always seek opportunity to ask you a lot of questions. And a whole lot of ‘em they didn’t meditate, they didn’t concentrate on ‘em AND THEY’RE JUST FULLY DEPENDENT ON YOU, AND THEY AIN’T GONNA DO NO RESEARCH FOR NOTHING, and you don’t want the people to be like that. See a whole lot of People they wanna, they heard about you, some of ‘em haven’t seen you yet, and they wanna be introduced to you, and they wanna sit down and interrogate you, and ask you from the birth of Christ to the death of the devil. See now you just can’t go around individually preaching and teaching to everybody on no basis like that with the world’s 3 ½ billion, 3 ¼ billion people. See there’s a time and place for everything, and we don’t deny it’s so.


Rip: I got another question here just for clarification that I think on what I had read in this book about the ages and the dispensations. You have here in the book that time begins and ends in Eternity. And the chart that’s in here it has all of the ages and dispensations surrounded in the cloud the way that it’s drawn. You familiar with the illustration I'm talking about?


Dr. Kinley: Yeah

Rip: Now…


Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute before you go any further, now this is what was meant by what was said. You ask me, said you were asking the question for clarification. Is that right?


Rip: right

Dr. Kinley: You haven’t posed the question yet…

Rip: no


Dr. Kinley: but you asked me in such a way that I almost know what you’re gonna say. But I don’t wanna answer the question before you ask it, but I almost know, so you go ‘head on without beating around the barn and tell me directly what you’re talking about and I’ll answer the question.


Rip: All right. What I was gonna ask about was different phases of understanding that we go through in our process and stages of development. For an example you have taught us that everybody is in the Age of Grace, chronologically. The Christians and everybody else is in the Age of Grace chronologically, but they're not all in there psychologically, in other words this is Grace for everybody, chronologically. But we know that Christians are psychologically still under the dispensation of the law in that they’re still practicing carnal ordinances. And my question is, is that a person can verbally explain how that Yahshua nailed all things to the cross, and that we are now in the dispensation of Grace, but in deportment, conduct, and attitude, they testify otherwise. So my question is: that a person can be knowledgeable that all these things are nailed to the cross, and that we are in the dispensation of Grace, and can explain it, but yet exhibit a negative attitude. Would it be proper to say that that person really is not in the dispensation of Grace psychologically?


Dr. Kinley: Well, you see Rip, now a person can sit down and listen to you say whatever you want to say, then he can repeat after you, that does not mean that he is changed, SO JUST REPETITION WITHOUT A KNOWLEDGE IS NO GOOD. Now when you spoke there and said he understands how to explain all these things, and yet in still by his works he proves otherwise that he don’t understand, so now you discern that. Now you posed a question, you asked me, and your question was what now?


Rip: My question was: is that, in that we go through ages and dispensations in our understanding, by that person's deportment and conduct, would it be proper to say that psychologically that person is not in the age of Grace?


Dr. Kinley: Well no, he doesn’t know, he’s just not, he just doesn't understand what he’s talking about. See just anybody could pick up my book and read it but I wouldn't guarantee you that you could better understand that than you would the Bible.


Rip: Well what I was looking at is this: is that I looked up the words and the etymology of age and dispensation. And it just flashed to me one day the word disposition would be synonymous to dispensation. So I went and I looked it up in an old unabridged dictionary, and sure enough there it was. Disposition and dispensation mean the same thing in a certain usage, the way that you could use the word, the application of it. So then I went back to the book, and really, I mean it just, things just started to happen, and started to unfold in reference to the way that you had the things written down here in the book. So then it directed me to the elementary chart, as to how it's labeled the "Pattern And The Plan Of Salvation” how that there are assent and descent patterns on the elementary chart... And then I put that together with what I had seen about the ages and dispensations chart. So it was, it was telling me that even in this class, in my stages of development and in my understanding of the states that I have been in from time to time, that I have experienced the particular attitude and dispositions of the people in certain ages…


Dr. Kinley: You mean some of the people?

Rip: some of the people…


Dr. Kinley: in this age, is that right? Are you talking about the school and the student body, is that what you talking about?


Rip: I'm talking about myself personally. See in other words the people in the ante diluvian age at a certain time became exceedingly idolatrous…


Dr. Kinley: Now wait a minute now, I wanna say one thing. This is what I want, this is what I want you to see. You’re asking me a question, now for you to tell me something about what somebody done in a different age or something like that it wouldn’t be following through with the answer to the question. You follow what I mean?


Rip: All right

Dr. Kinley: But go ‘head on and express it.


Rip: I was trying to make my question clear as to what I wanted to know about. I wanted a confirmation on some things that I had been looking at, some things I had been observing.


Dr. Kinley: Well you see Rip it’s like this, a person either understands or else they don’t. They know or else they don’t know. That’s the only attitude you can take about a thing. Now if you hear a person’s principles declared, well sometimes it’s negative, and sometimes it’s positive; now that’s up to you to discern the situation. Now my thought to you is this: Now when you spoke about dispensations and ages and how people thought, now if you’re saying that in respect to the class, the understanding that’s in the class, or in the understanding that the world has out there, differentiate between one and the other in the posing of your question.


Rip: Well I'm speaking specifically in the school. In other words, we teach repetitiously all over the country that we’re no longer in the dispensation of the Law but we’re under the dispensation of Grace, and we propound heavily the fulfillment of the carnal ordinances, and yet in the observation of the attitudes and the dispositions, of many of the people, it would suggest otherwise. And I was using myself for an example that I haven't been a bowl of cherries myself. I have been corrected many times, and you had me to get up here in Los Angeles before I left from there to confess the particular things, or what we would call the reproaches that I had brought in the school here because of my deportment and my conduct before I left here. And you told me to clean my house before I left, and I been going through changes and development ever since. Now in looking back I see some people going through the same stages and changes that I went through in the stages of development that was going on with me. So I was likening that unto different ages, different ages and dispensations that a person goes through psychologically and spiritually. And this is the understanding that I have received through reading the book, is that you can look at the behavior pattern of the people in certain ages and dispensations in the law and the prophets, and you can look at what's going on in the school, and you can discern and see what age, and what dispensation that person is in, psychologically speaking, in the day of eternity.


Dr. Kinley: Now let’s say this: In this school you have novices. You know what I mean by that?

Rip: have what?

Dr. Kinley: Novices

Rip: Novices, N O V E L I S C S

Dr. Kinley: No, N O V I C E S

Rip: Novices, okay.

Dennis: What does that mean Doc?

Dr. Kinley: Beginners

Dennis: begin…okay


Dr. Kinley: [Doc chuckles] and then you have seasoned. Now this thing is not understood spasmodically so. And then you have a process of teaching people, and they’re being led by the Holy Spirit. Now you have some there that understand, and you have some that don’t. Now what your primary objective is is to teach those that don’t know. Now some will come in and they think they have understood, and they’ll go on off to try to teach somebody else or something another like that. And then you might consider them as a part of the school, but no, cause he come in spasmodically so, and what he’s more interested in is going out there proving to somebody how smart he is. Now he may be sitting up in class but he ain’t aware of what he’s teaching his own self, he’s just got something to talk about. But what I’m always trying to do is make people realize the ever presence of Yahweh, that He is Real. Now that’s 99 and 44 hundredths percent of my whole entire life in conversations is to make them realize that Yahweh is real, and He does definitely exist, and you will have to give in account for the deeds done while you at home in the body. And then you won’t be feeding yourself with unleavened bread and dishonesty of it, or in other words you won’t be taking in the wrong thing, and doing the wrong thing with what you have. You’d be careful about that, and you’d recognize the fact that the eyes of Yahweh is in every place beholding the evil and the good, even in your conscience.


And then now another thing too, the Apostle said this, or Yahshua the Messiah said it, “Let your yeas be yea, and your nays be nay.” There are things that are important and that not important. All foolish and unlearned questions see you have to think those things over again first before you just sit down and discuss ‘em. If you don’t put your mind on ‘em, and keep your mind on your question, then you just waste a lot of time in the interrogation, and the answers to the thing will just fly out of your hat before you can get it across to ‘em. You must meditate and concentrate on that thing before he teaches it.


Now I’d like to say this: Now a person, a person that desires to know some things, and really understands the purpose of Yahweh, can have questions in their minds, and they try to follow, and try to ---- ----, and break ‘em down in simplicity, and communicate it to somebody. You follow?


Rip: Yeah. When we receive communication a lot of times from you that’s emanating from the Holy Spirit that abides within you, and the form that it comes to us in, when we try to relay it to others sometimes we get into trouble don’t we?


Dr. Kinley: Yes you do, unless you take certain things and remember, that’s what the Holy Spirit was to do was to bring to your remembrance, that’s the reason why meditation and concentration is necessary.


Rip: There’s one thing that holds and poses a question in my heart and mind, one thing in particular. And that is the thoughts of you have been impressed on my conscience for the last three weeks, just constant impressions. And Lennie asked me, she says “Rip, we got a lot of work to do in Washington, why do you wanna go to L.A. at this time, you don’t have any pertinent business?” And I told her, “Well Lennie, I can’t answer that because all I can tell you is, is that I have constant impressions of Dr. Kinley on my conscience, day in and day out, and when things like that happens to me I have to do something to get this off of me.” So that’s the reason why I came out here, and I was wondering about that kind of communication, and that type of reception. Cause I remember I talked to you one time, I came to see you, and uh, no, I called you on the telephone, and I asked you had you been trying to get in contact with me, and you said “No,” but I had been constantly seeing you.


Dr. Kinley: Well, it’s like this: Now David spoke back there in the Psalms, he said, “Yahweh was ever before his face,” all the time just constantly. Well that didn’t mean Yahweh was trying to get in touch with him He was already in touch with him. And so actually what it meant by what it said is this: See David was always conscious of the ever presence of Yahweh such an extent until His presence become protruded in his conscience and he could see that all the time, and he’s being led and guided by that, the Holy Spirit. So that’s what it amounts to is this, it’s not that the Holy Spirit is trying to look you up or something like that, I already know where you are. But now if I wanted to get in touch with you, then just reason like this, if I wanted to get in touch with you, since you were in Chicago or wherever you are…


Rip: in Washington


Dr. Kinley: Washington. And if I wanted to get in touch with you, then if I had your name and address written down in our book, or if you would send it on postal literature or a letter telling us about the change of address and where you was then, and your telephone number, and so forth and so on I could have it. Then reason that if I had it, and if I wanted to get in touch with you then I I’d just look up your number and call it. But otherwise, know that every day and every hour I’m concerned about you and all the rest of ‘em everywhere.


Rip: So you stay prepared.

Dr. Kinley: That’s correct


Rip: Well I always try to see a definite purpose for every move that I make, or to be conscious of how the spirit is moving me. I don’t never ever like to come anywhere just for the sake of coming, I just always like to know the reason behind it, and sometimes I can see the understanding. [Doc asking Mary or somebody in the room to bring him a little square bottle not transcribed – about 30 seconds]


Rip: You know what I, what I was looking at in reference to the things that you were going into, and I've heard certain vibrations of the same things since I've been here. I'm recognizing now that I'm seeing coming to pass that a lot of pressure is being applied to really reveal and see what's in a man. You know like maybe I could say to you that, I really believe in Yahshua the Messiah, and I love to manifest or to preach His word. Well pretty soon I'll be put in a position as to where one could see whether what I was saying was true or not. In other words my deed must reflect my words like Moses. Moses was mighty in words and in deed among the people, in other words he did what he said, backed it up. And Luke writes about it in the Acts of Apostles and says that Yahshua was mighty in word and in deed among the people. And James picked it up and he says, “He that is a sayer of the word and not a doer is like a man beholding himself in a glass, and he goes away and forgets what manner of man that he was." So then the deed must coincide with the word. In other words, the testimony must link up with the law. My actions, my disposition and attitude must reflect my word otherwise I make myself a transgressor. So I'm saying that with the thing that's coming up now, it's being applied, or the pressure is being put on down at the end to see what is actually in a man. In other words when Yahshua got down to close to where He was ready to leave here, He started prodding the people, and all them Scribes and Pharisees that had been parading around, and setting in Moses' seat, and so forth and posing as ministers of righteousness, and people that knew about the interpretation of the law... I mean He brought out what was really in them. And so is the same people that said "Hosanna," and laid down psalms, but when the heat was put on 'em, them same people said "Away with Him! Crucify Him!" In other words He brought out what was really in the people. And I see that taking place in our organization. I mean some things happened at the Convention 75, if I hadn't had the Holy Spirit in me, I’d of packed my clothes and I never would have looked back at this organization. I'm talking about what I had to suffer during some of the events up there. But recognizing the purpose, I know I don’t have nowhere else to go. I know that everything that I know for sure I picked it up in this organization. In other words, I'm indebted to preach the gospel and to carry out the dictates of the Holy Spirit. But if it don't be for that, what I experience and what I saw, see I would have been gone and kept stepping. And what I'm seeing is, like that Ark was tried out there on them waters, and them children of Israel was tried in the wilderness back there, and Yahshua coming in, He was tested by the adversary. I looked at that plate on the 40 plate chart, and I believe it's plate 29, Baptismal Ministry, where you got at the bottom, you got a prepared body, where He gets baptized there in the River Jordan. Now that's when He comes down from Nazareth and is baptized by John the Baptist. Now then He's on His way up. Now, then after He get baptized by John the Baptist then He goes into the wilderness. And Doc has written right there on the chart, Controversy in the Wilderness. He was in there 40 days and 40 nights. Now He passed the test, just like Ark stood the test, and those that were real in the wilderness stood the test and went on over into Canaan's land. Now after He stood the test, fulfilling the law and prophets, then He went on and preached the sermon from the mount. Now what I've done is gone is gone though that plate. See you’ve got the bottom plate there, you got the cross, prepared body, and baptism of John the Baptist, and the heavens opened, the blood, water and spirit, and you go on into the wilderness. And you go through those changes, and then after that you go on up and sat on the mount and preach to the people. And just by looking at that I can see that certain changes has to take place within the confines of the operation even in the school. I see a lot of things developing, a lot of things taking on shape and form. And as he said there a while ago, "If you ain't got your eyes open, sharp, keen, see you’re hurt, can’t be a whole lot of talk." And that's the reason why I said there a while ago, I mean I'm listening and weighing carefully every word that is being said. And then I’ll go back in the hours of meditation and play the tape over again.


What we did... I came to the meeting here in Los Angeles, right down there at Dr. Gross' house, and Dr. Kinley, I ask him a question about what did he mean about Going Ahead Of The Cloud? And he explained it, and here's what he said. He said, "Don't start nothing in this school that you don't have the ability to explain according to the purpose." Now that's what he means by going ahead of the cloud. Now and see it don't make no difference about what nobody else say about what he meant, see I heard that for myself! Now then I got it on tape. And the things that were said on that tape we went back and we listened to it three or four times. You talking about regurgitation, you think you've got the goodies out of it, but then you go back and you listen to it again, there's something else that you can see from the same tape. But Yahweh's Purpose is rolling on, and I tell you when He opens your eyes up it really something; it’s a joy really.


Dr. Kinley: See I don’t know if I mentioned this. The Messiah said don’t take no thought on what you should say when you come before the counsel, because I’ll be in you, and at that hour it will be given to you what you should say. Now to apply that thing, you remember when Peter and John was over in the Temple Messiah went into the Temple and that lame man was healed by Yahshua the Messiah and he got arrested. And the Pharisees and Scribes said, “It’s a notable thing that He’s done here, and we can’t deny it...


[TAPE GOES INTO DISTORTION FOR ABOUT 9 MINUTES]……. [cd4047- 4701]


DR. KINLEY: You know I woke up early this morning before day; I had a dream, and it woke me up. And so I always try to think on why I had a dream; and this was the dream. There were people and all around in the days when you didn’t have the big stores. And some of them would go to the grocer and purchase some food, and then they would bring it to a certain spot and lay it down in another delicatessen that didn’t have all the necessary things in their store. And the things that they knew they were out of they would bring back and lay ‘em down, until they… And then maybe it was some things in there they could benefit from. And then they’d come back and move their stuff and pick it up and move on.


So I took my little bunch of stuff that I had and carried it back and laid it on the platform, and it wasn’t nobody’s stuff there but mine at that time, so then I went on back. As I started to go back it looked like the door way was shut closed, and so anyhow I got in. And then I went back out to get my stuff, and come to find out well somebody had stole my stuff, and took things such as a loaf of bread or something like that you know. Now there were some pictures, why they didn’t take, or else they were over loaded to such an extent until they couldn’t carry it, so they left them, and they didn’t have no conversation with me about it. So by them stealing my stuff, I thought to myself, they could have came to me. And so I looked up at the man that owned the place, and he said to me… I said, “Them people they done stole everything I had to put out here.” He said, “Yes I was looking out the window at ‘em and they were kids, said “I saw it.” Well it wasn’t gone do him no good to tell me who they were because I didn’t know ‘em, even if he had told me the names, I wouldn’t have known ‘em. So I said, “Well, I wonder what’s the interpretation of this dream?” Well it wasn’t no problem; it wasn’t no problem at all. So I woke up. Said “Oh well it’s all right it’s just a dream, it’s all right.” I wonder if it’s anything else that they needed that they didn’t have, and if there was I wish they would tell me or let me know something about it and I’d give it to ‘em. You see what I mean? Did you follow Me?


Rip: I followed, I heard you tell the dream, but I didn’t see, I didn’t get no interpretation, but I heard what you said.


Dr. Kinley: Well here’s what I’m saying. It’s just like me going to a grocer and buying food, and all like that (I wasn’t interpreting it I was just telling you the dream), me going to the grocery and getting food. Now this delicatessen they didn’t have everything let’s say like the Big Giant Food Store. And what they didn’t have that I needed I went and got it and brought it back to this place. And it seem to be in the dream what the rest of the people were doing, bringing their provisions there and laying ‘em down there, and then each one would load his own individual stuff and place it on this table at the back of the store, in back of the delicatessen. Then if he got any need of anything in the delicatessen that he hasn’t got, why then he could pick that up and take it on and leave the rest of the stuff out there and take that, and go on about his business and go home. See now that was the dream.


Now the interpretation: The interpretation of it is this: Now we have the truth, which we’ve gathered from the Law and the Prophets. In other words we have the tools, and we have the ways, and we have all the means, and every other thing we need we have it right in that. Now then we take it and set it down here to see if there’s something that, we go back and look and see if it’s something on the list that we didn’t get that they might have in the delicatessen, or if it’s just some minor thing, you know like buying some ice cream or something like that, or ---- ---, provisions or maybe some things like that. Now when I laid it down, laid the stuff down and went in there to get it, somebody stole my stuff when I went back after it. Now I realize that there’s certain people around all over the world trying to steal or ---- ---- trying to steal from me with the use of my books. Now if you go to try to find out who or where this, or this feller here says this…that sounds like it’s coming out of my book; he’s stole from me. Now who it was, was unknown, you don’t have no name, you don’t have no address. The man up there looking up in the window he knows the people, because he’s familiar with them they been in and out of his delicatessen, but not me, so if he tells me who it was I wouldn’t know nothing about the address and whatnot. You see what I’m talking about?


Dennis: The man up in the window is supposed to be Yahweh, the boss?


Dr. Kinley: Yes that’s right, or is supposed to be somebody that had a perfect knowledge of it, he said “I seen him steal.”


Dennis: and ain’t getting away with it from him…

Dr. Kinley: No, that’s right

Dennis: and you ain’t accusing him to the Father…


Dr. Kinley: No, that’s right. And then tells the man this, “Now if they didn’t get enough of whatever it was, said let me know about it and I’ll see to it that they’re supplied with some more, give it to ‘em free of charge just like they got that.”


Dennis: In other words what you’re saying then, boss, is if they wanna go to the lake then you’ll help ‘em go to the lake, right?


Dr. Kinley: um-um, no, not that, but if they didn’t receive the sufficient supply, and they so desired to know, then without requesting the ID, if they would just come and say that they needed some more, some more food, I wouldn’t consider that they were just stealing, but I would give them enough that would satisfy.


Dennis: Okay if I understand what you’re saying, now is that if they would repent and want more knowledge and understanding you’ll give ‘em the thing.


Lady: They don’t have to steal it.

Dennis: Yeah, they don’t have to steal it. I see what you mean. [CD5551]


Rip: That reminds me of a dream I had. You told me this twice maybe I’ll ask you again. I asked the other day but you didn’t make any comment. The dream that I had 14 years ago, and haven’t never been able to understand it.


Everybody was gathered around giving you gifts. Somebody gave you a pint of whiskey, and when you got it you threw it out into the audience, and I caught it in my hand, right hand…


Dr. Kinley: And now you said you… Well now I thought you said that they were giving you gifts.


Rip: Naw, they were giving you gifts. All the people were gathered around giving you gifts, it seemed like it had been some type of ceremony or something, and they were just showering you gifts. Somebody gave you a pint of whiskey, and you threw it out in the audience, and I raised my hand up and I caught it; out of all those people I caught it. And I was gonna share it with the people, so I began to take the cap off of the liquor, and you said, “Hold it Rip, don’t take the cap off, not now, I’ll tell you when.” And that was the end of the dream. Dad, you gonna do that one for me? [Chit-chat not transcribed]


Dr. Kinley: See now with the story, you said they were bestowed on me. If it’s true, that was not the correct thing for me to be receiving gifts from others. To straighten the officials, for anything I want, I can get. Now I don’t want no automobile, I don’t want no penthouse, I don’t want no million dollars, I wanna cut out all carnal ordinances. But now what I do want is this, is to respect and acknowledge that if I wanna buy some steak or if I wanna buy something to eat, then you respect it. Or if Mary needs something to prepare it with, of course she’d need something another like that, whatever is necessary to be done that she might need in order to prepare without being a total hindrance… You understand what I’m talking about? So they gave it to me. Now if somebody come along and gave me something, and therefore I didn’t have no need of it, see I pass it on to somebody else like I threw that bottle of whiskey out there, and I don’t want it opened. We don’t wanna spread no negation around. A bottle of whiskey represents spirit. Now that’s the wrong spirit; we don’t won’t that opened in here to spread negation among the congregation, you withhold, don’t bring nothing in here, because some of us don’t understand. You follow what I mean? Now that’s the wrong… [Tape ends].