Questions and Answers on the Textbook
Question and Answer Session in Springfield, Ohio with the IDMR International Secretary, Dr. Mary Gross. Audio cassette recording received by Mr. Richard Gibson of Springfield, OH. Date: Mid-1990s. Converted from Cassette to MP3. Primary Subject: An History of the School's Textbook Published in 1961.
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DR. GILL: ...The 1960's edition of one of the original copies of the book, which we commonly refer to as the Textbook. And being the Dean of the Northern Region, I've gotten quite a few questions here lately about, about the Textbook and people want to know: who wrote it, what Dr. Kinley thought about it, and things like this. And since we have Dr. Mary Gross who worked extensively with Dr. Kinley on the Textbook. I asked her last week if she would go in and give us the information that she has about it. What we want to know is: who wrote the book, what was written, and what Dr. Kinley thought about the book and so forth like that. So any information that Dr. Mary Gross can give us would be greatly appreciated. So at this time our first speaker tonight will be our International President...(International President)...the International Secretary Dr. Mary Gross.
STUDENT BODY: (some light laughter from the audience)
DR. MARY GROSS: ...the Textbook was first written in 19...well, he really started it back here in the 30s, 40s, whenever, and he often said that he could never get anyone to help him. Now it's been said that he had to come out there and get people to help him write the Textbook. That's not what Dr. Kinley said. He said he could not get anyone to help him when he was writing back here. He would give it to different people, pay people, to type the work out and things like that for him and they would either change it, leave out part of it or whatever. Numerous times he paid different women to do typing for him and it was never properly done.
So then in '58 when we went to California, he started working then on the Textbook. But before it was in book form, and he wrote it, he did pamphlets. I typed them on the typewriter on the stencil. Then they were run off, Dr. Gross would run them off on the memograph machine. And I don't know whether there's any copies around here or not, but they were done on--in subject form like the Mission of John the Baptist, and then it was Jesus Christ, and the Mark of the Beast. But each subject was a different pamphlet. So he did that before the Textbook went out, which was October 1961. And what he felt, he was the one that called it a textbook. It was not us. He called it a textbook. Now you said, 'How did he feel about it', get me Habbakuk the second chapter.
SCRIPTURE READER [PENNY HUGHES]: Habbakuk 2:1, "I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. And Yahweh answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that everyone may read it fluently."
DR. MARY GROSS: Thank you. And he said that's what he did. He wrote the vision and he made it plain. And when he would give a lecture he would say, "Now what I teach, I explain. Don't go down on the sidewalk and interpret what I'm...", he said, "When I teach, I interpret. I do not need you to interpret or to help me out."
So now the Textbook, he wrote the Textbook. I was there every day and every night. I typed every word in this Textbook. This particular one was typeset. After I typed it, it went to the printer he typeset it. It was first sent to London, England to be printed. And when they saw the material, they sent it back. They wouldn't print it. They were afraid of their jobs, because I think in this volume, III is the Mark of the Beast. And it's in IV now in the later one. And when they saw that, they refused to print it. So they sent it back.
So the place that printed this I think was in Monrovia, California. Was a place that does year books. So the, um, the publisher that we had out there, Alfred Q. Jarrette, he's the one that found the place to print the Textbook. And after they put it all up, it's called dummy sheets, people that know anything about printing know what I'm talking about, and they brought it back and we went over it and corrected a lot of mistakes they had made. Took it back to the printers, they corrected some of the mistakes, not all of them, and made more mistakes. So Doc Kinley always said there were over 200 and some mistakes or errors in this book, but he always clarified they were typographical errors. He always clarified when he made that statement.
Now he did write this Textbook. He did not write the medical portion. Now the introduction to the different volumes, he did ask different ones, Dr. Harris for one, to help on that. The illustrations were done by the cofounder and dean, who is deceased, Dr. Carl Gross. So when we first worked on it, it was just me, Carl Gross, and Dr. Kinley. And we worked day and night to get it completed. So then after they refused to do it in England then Dr. Jarrette got it done out there.
Now since'61 it has been reprinted and I think some of the introduction has been changed, but as far as the Textbook, no. It has not been changed from the...what Dr. Kinley wrote. But he definitely did write the Textbook. Other than the part that I named. Now he did not do that. And he used to tell...and like I said, he was the one that called it a textbook, not us. But different ones would tell him from time to time.
I had to be on every council meeting and everything they had. I use to think why do I have to be (inaudible) I mean I heard these same stories over and over and over and over. Sometimes he would stop and I would just want to cringe because I heard them so much. And they would, they would ask him different things, and he was a very patient person. Of course, I always lacked patience. He never portrayed or showed forth anything but love. And he would...if you wanted to sit there three days, four days, all night, he'd sit there with you and have patience. And he would explain over and over and over again. And then he would refer them to this Textbook a lot of times. He would say, "Have you ever read it? Do you have one?" And he had a couple people out there...
Well this is pertaining to the pamphlets. I typed every pamphlet that has ever gone out in the IDMR. There was one pamphlet, we were getting ready to come back here, so he asked someone to type it. They did. But it didn't go in print until we got back and we checked it. And he'd say, "No, throw that out." So I had to retype it. Why? Because they wanted to correct his grammar, they wanted to make his sentences more grammatically correct. And look when Yahweh puts something down I am dumb enough to type it the way he put them, because it changes the thought. It changes everything. And I can't correct Yahweh. I'm not smart enough to do it. So however, if he would say "ain't", I'd type "ain't". Because there had to be a reason for it. And if he wanted a sentence half a page long, I typed it a half a page long. I didn't try to break it down and reword it. So he put it exactly the way he wanted it. Not the way that I thought it should be or anyone else. And like I said he did have help as far as some of the introductions to the different volumes. But when he first started it, there wasn't anyone working with him but me and Dr. Gross. Because everyone else worked, you know, and everything.
So do you have any questions, anyone, that you'd like to ask about?
STUDENT BODY: (quiet)
DR. MARY GROSS: Must not. You know all about it.
DR. MARY GROSS: I beg your pardon? How long did it take to write the Textbook? He started the, like the last month of 1958 or maybe January of 1959. And it took from then to October 1961. (pause) Yes, hon.
DR. MARY GROSS: ...and Dr. Harris wrote, yes. He wrote every word of the medical part. Cause he always talked to Dr. Kinley and taught what he had learned through him. Yes, Dr. Harris did write that. (pause) Yes.
STUDENT: You and I talked a few months ago.
DR. MARY GROSS: Uh, huh.
STUDENT: I asked you. And you told me he took, he and Dr. Gross worked for months...
DR. MARY GROSS: They worked three months.
STUDENT: ...on one word.
DR. MARY GROSS: Yeah.
STUDENT: About "from" or "through" now which way? Would you explain that please?
DR. MARY GROSS: They...when he wrote that particular, I think it's on about page 22 of this book (pause) Yes. It's called the Godhead. Now three months Dr. Kinley and Dr. Gross worked on this particular...there's about four illustrations here. (pause) Well, five. But to get these exactly like he wanted, Dr. Gross would draw them out and then have me to type up what he wanted in here and down here. Now then this wasn't easy, because it was a manual typewriter. We didn't have computers or electric typewriters then. So to figure out how to get your paper in and everything, wasn't an easy job. But was three months he would have me to type it up and Dr. Gross would draw it out. And this word "through" spirit, incorporeal form to the physical form, he had "from" in there, he had different words. And he kept saying, "No. Redo it." Until he got it exactly like he wanted it.
He never just did anything and took it the way it was. He worked until...he said, "If it were not broken down where the public and the people can understand it, why write it." And then he would go back and tell us about when Dr. Gorman Bass, he was one of the first members I understand, and Dr. Gross, they wanted him to write something. So he (inaudible) so he said, "Okay". And so he wrote a page. And they read it. And they said, "Well, we don't understand any of this. You have to break it down." And he said, " Well, I've done all you've asked me to do." So he gave it to Dr. Carl Gross and he took it to Wittenberg College. And I forget, maybe you remember, but it was one or two pages and paid a man $100 to break it down. (inaudible) he gave it back to Dr. Gross. So he was very particular in how he worded anything. It had to be the way that he wanted it before he would let any of it go out.
And he always told the different ones when they would, you know, come to him asking him questions or anything, the teachers mainly, to see if they understood whatever. And if they had it straight, he would always tell them and explain it to them. But he'd always say, "Don't ever teach that unless you put your finger on it in the bible". He said, "Even if it's right. Don't teach it if you can put your finger on it in the bible." Because he said, "You want the people to understand. And you got to give them something they can see in order to understand anything." So he would always admonish the speakers to be able to get it out of the scriptures. And another thing about Jarrette, the reason I keep moving is because I have a bad back and I can't stand. So if I fall down, don't get excited. I won't have far to fall here. But he would always tell them, "Now don't threaten people. Warn the people. But don't ever threaten the people." Now that's all through your scriptures. He was very conscious of the way some of us would try to get a point across. And he said, "No. You can't threaten people. Warn them. But you don't threaten them." That's why I enjoyed Dr. Higgins and Ron Carr and the different ones that have spoken to prove how it has to come by revelation. And if it isn't revealed to us none of us has any chance at all.
DR. OLIVER GILL: One thing I was...one of the questions that I get now is (inaudible) how did Dr. Kinley feel about what was in the book?
DR. MARY GROSS: If it's true. Do you believe it? Is this true and do you believe it? Is there anything true in here?
STUDENT BODY: (from the audience) Yes.
DR. MARY GROSS: Do you believe anything in here?
STUDENT BODY: (from the audience) Yes.
DR. MARY GROSS: Everything he wrote in this textbook is backed by the scriptures. He never wrote anything that he didn't back by the scriptures. Now what do you want? Do you want my TCO's: theories, concepts and opinions? Or do you want proof? That's one thing he was very dogmatic about. If you can't prove it by the scriptures, leave it alone. But if he taught that, that's the exact same thing that he did. You go through this textbook, and anything that he, any point, he always put it in there according to the scriptures. And even the Mark of the Beast he used a lot of different material of the Roman Catholics. But when he explained what they had written to show their error he always did it by the scriptures. So did that answer your question?
DR. OLIVER GILL: Yes. The question I get (inaudible)
DR. MARY GROSS: Anyone else have any questions? (pause) Yes.
STUDENT: It's been said that Dr. Droulard wrote the...
DR. MARY GROSS: ...The Hundred and Nineteenth Division of Psalms. That's correct.
STUDENT: Is that true?
DR. MARY GROSS: That is true. He came up to the apartment one night, early, and he had drawn out...well not pictures on the chart, but figures and things that correlated, corresponded to the 119th division of Psalms. And he had it drawn out on a big piece of brown paper. And he had it on the floor. And he was there 'til four in the morning. And he went over it with Doc Kinley. And wanted it put in the Textbook. And Doc said, "Go ahead, put it in the Textbook". But when it came out in the Textbook it wasn't the illustrations that he'd shown to Doc, it was Tarot cards. And you know what Tarot cards are. It's what fortune tellers uses to tell fortunes by. So I asked Dr. Kinley, I said, "Why did you allow that?" He said, "Mary, there is nothing wrong with the 119th division of Psalms." So if you are reading it for understanding, if you have any understanding, you know what those illustrations are, they're the Tarot cards. You don't want your fortune told, do you? (inaudible) So forget that and take Psalms the way it is written. So yes he did write that, uh Droulard did. (pause)
DR. MARY GROSS: No more questions? (pause) Yes.
STUDENT: Um. Some people get the typographical errors misconstrued. What do you mean by typographical errors?
DR. MARY GROSS: Okay. There's a lot of typographical errors. And I can say that 'cause I did the typing. There's all that I made plus the ones the printer made. And then later on redid the book (inaudible) through (inaudible) Gill would know better than I. It was typed out and then it was reproduced exactly like it was put on paper. It was done by some kind of lazer photography. So typeographical errors like it should have been "t-h-e" and I would write "h-t-e" or "t-h-t" or that sort of typographical error. (pause) Ma'am?
STUDENT: I heard some say it was more than a typographical error, there was one part pertaining to two spirits in one body. They were saying that was more than a typographical error.
DR. MARY GROSS: That's right and do you know what volume that was? Medical volume. Dr. Harris explained that. He said at the time that was his understanding. He did not understand it. Then when he fully understood it, he corrected that. It's no longer in there in the later volumes. That's Dr. Harris' writing. And he did correct it, because he was young. We've all grown, we hope. That's why we're coming—to grow. So he admitted, yes, that he didn't understand it. But he did take care of 'em. But that was part of (inaudible). Yes.
STUDENT: Did Dr. Kinley ever state which is the better bible to read: the Holy Name Bible or the King James version?
DR. MARY GROSS: No. He said if you weren't completely real familiar with the true names, you should have a Holy Name Bible. But he pointed out mistakes in the Holy Name Bible the same as he did in the other Bible. So as far as one being better, no. Because theres mistakes in all of them, like what Cynthia read tonight first chapter of, First Corinthians 10th chapter, like the cloud "following" or "leading" and things like that. So some of 'em, A. B. Traina picked up and others he didn't. So no. (inaudible)
STUDENT: Did Dr. Kinley every say...(inaudible)
DR. MARY GROSS: Yes. Yes, he did. When it was typeset the first time and it came back to us there was things that they had changed all around. And one of the things that they had changed around was the chronology in the book. So we had to redo all that and take it back to the printers and I spent a week or two weeks with them to make sure they got that particular, you know, back the way he had it. But then they changed other things around. It was mostly the errors that they made but yes they did try.
STUDENT: I had a question about the 119th division of Psalms. (inaudible) Did you say you should just ignore just the Tarot cards or the writings...
DR. MARY GROSS: No. Any writings Droulard did on the Tarot cards was his explanation. So just forget that but take the 119th division of Psalms exactly the way it is in your bible. (pause) Does anyone have any questions they'd like...oh.
STUDENT: Did Doc ever teach or say that we...there were two souls? Because it's going around that...
DR. MARY GROSS: Uh, no. Not in my hearing he never did.
STUDENT: Thank you.
DR. MARY GROSS: ...and I can't find it in the scriptures to back it up.
STUDENT: I can't either.
DR. MARY GROSS: You know me for my own satisfaction.I can't do that.
STUDENT: Thank you.
DR. MARY GROSS: Yes. (inaudible) She said, "Did Dr. Kinley ever teach there were two souls in a body?" Is that correct?
STUDENT: Well, it's being taught that we have the one soul has to be gotten rid of and we have to get a new soul. It's being taught in some classes.
DR. MARY GROSS: Yes. That's a doctrinal question. And its, you have to back it up with your scriptures. You have to know what "new" is, like "new heart" and "new mind". You have to get that out of your scriptures. But it talks about the converting of the soul and being saved through Yahshua the Messiah. So, that's all I'll say about that.
DR. MARY GROSS: Any other questions? Does anyone have any questions about Dr. Kinley they'd like to ask? (pause) Yes.
DR. MARY GROSS: Yes.
STUDENT: Do you still have that?
DR. MARY GROSS: We have it in part but not in totality. The reason I say that when Jarrette kinda' drifted off and moved on to other things we did not get all of our books back that we used for information or all of our transcripts back. Only parts of it. (pause) Okay, do you have any questions about the administrative matters of the school or anything? Since we've got this open, let's lay it all out.
STUDENT BODY: (some light laughter from the audience)
DR. MARY GROSS: Some answers from me probably (inaudible)
DR. MARY GROSS: Well, if you, if we don't all teach the same truth, then you've already fallen away and you were never part of it in the beginning. But if you make it known that you don't want to be a part of the IDMR, shake the dust off and don't worry about the ones that were never really... If you don't want to be a part of it, (inaudible) you were never a part of it in the first place. So there was really no great loss. (pause) Yes?
DR. MARY GROSS: The majority.
DR. MARY GROSS: No. No, they went out on their own. And I remember one member wanted to start a school. I won't say where. And he packed up everything, they got everything all set up that he was gonna do. And he had a big truck parked out in front of the house and he came up and talked to Dr. Kinley...and all how I'm going to set up this school. He was so out done. Dr. Kinley told him (inaudible) like he was sound asleep and his party left. (inaudible) "He didn't really talk to me about, you know, what I should do, how I should go about it." And this person talked to me later I said, "Well, did you talk to him and tell him what was on your mind? Did you feel that you were qualified and able to handle it?" But no, that happened many, many times where they went on their own. (pause) Yes.
STUDENT: When you have the meetings, monthly meetings in California, how can you get the minutes to those meetings?
DR. MARY GROSS: The minutes are sent to the Dean of every Branch. And if you talk to your Dean, I'm sure he would share the minutes with you. We couldn't afford to send minutes to everyone that wants minutes, because just to get the minutes out now costs us around $400 a month. And that's to the Deans of each Branch. So I'm sure if you talk to your Dean and share that with...Yeah?
DR. LAJUNE GILL: When Oliver was...when he worked as a printer, he used to make copies and every member of the board would get a copy and since he retired we no longer have a printer, right? I have one copy. Different ones have come and asked me could they read them and I let them read. So that's what you have to do. I don't go around and ask people do they want to read them. If you want to read them, you come ask me. (inaudible)
DR. MARY GROSS: Okay. I guess that's it. Now I can get out of the hot seat and let someone else take it over. Thank you.
STUDENT BODY: (Applause) Halleluyah.
SECOND SPEAKER, DR. ROBERT BUFFINGTON, IS ANNOUNCED BY THE MODERATOR CYNTHIA PAYNE.
(Please send corrections to Kinley Davis.)